Thursday, August 24, 2006

Clarification re: CV fudging

An update on my previous post. Several people wrote in to clarify that the CV fudger did get punished.

"The person was issued an Out of Placement service ticket (OOPS) and the firm where he had received a PPO earlier was also duly notified... The only action that was NOT taken was expulsion of the student from the institute."

I am glad to hear that - it sends out the right signals against such behaviour.

Some of you made a point about me 'glorifying' the fact that Gaurav Mathur did not fudge a certificate. I don't agree.

The point is the certificate was a mere technical requirement. There is no doubt that Gaurav would have genuinely completed it in a month or two - so fudging would have bought him the time and allowed him to keep his seat.

That is why it was a bigger dilemma.

The problem of some universities not completing their session in time is not new. It existed way back in 1991 when I joined IIM-A. It's about time the authorities concerned addressed the issue and did not penalise students.

A deferred admission could easily be granted while offering the lost seat to someone on the waiting list!

Lastly there is the issue of MBA institutes wilfully inflating placement salaries. Yes, something needs to be done about this.

Several people have left comments and sent me emails pointing a finger at IIM Bangalore. The charge is that the average salary figure released by IIM B in March 2006 was originally Rs 8.7 or 9 lakhs. But after other institutes released their figures, it climbed to Rs 9.8 lakhs - the highest across all IIMs.

How? An IIM student points out:"They had conveniently included a clause stating that only salaries of those who had agreed to disclose were accounted for! This means the bottom 20% can peacefully be ignored for calculation as they would have "not wanted" to disclose salaries..."

I think it's fairly simple to arrive at 'correct' placements figures. All the institutes must agree on a single method of computing averages and allow the process to be externally certified.

But this means that institutes have to get over their obsession with making headlines like "IIMX student gets 95 lakh offer" . And also stop judging their self worth by 'beating' everyone else when it comes to the average salary figure.

Perhaps IIM B has something to say in its defence - I would be glad to hear it. The idea of airing these issues in a public forum is to generate debate on this subject much before the placement season.

One method that could be adopted to ensure greater transparency in placement figures:
- Average salary for students with 0-2 years experience (basically freshers)
- Average salary for those with 2-5 years experience ('junior lateral')
- Average salary for those with 5 years plus experience ('senior lateral')

Of course Indian and foreign salaries should continue to be mentioned separately. And lowest salary figures must be released as well.

Media needs to be a little less gaga and a little more critical as well.

And yes, all this applies not just to IIMs but all MBA institutes. Coz inflation is something a lot of b schools are indulging in.

To take things a step further, there are instances of lesser known institutes who are 'tying up' with HR heads of certain companies to ensure their students get placed. Yeah, they actually keep aside a separate budget for this purpose.

The larger question that begs to be asked: is a bschool in the business of education or merely a glorified job placement agency?


  1. There's little doubt that an MBA degree is a stepping stone to a better salary rather than anything else.In many places,MBAs and graduates do the same work but MBAs are paid more because of their tag.I see no reason for companies to pay such exorbitant salaries for 2 years of education. However good a candidate maybe, no reason why such inflated salaries need to be paid. After all, the IIMs represent the creamy layer of our students but they still choose to highlight only their fat packages and nothing else.Big fat salaries make for grat media headlines and the IIMs are merely catering to them by highlighting teh packages though they can choose not to do so by the sheer dint of their reputation.

  2. well m'am am gonna sit 4 CaT this nov. & COMPETETION is red-hot... IIMz r showcased to be "Short-cut to success & wealth". pretty much the first thing we enquire about the institue's are not it's credentials but Placement offers... the packages being offered to MbA's are showcased as trophies & the media frenzy hypes up everything that even while relaxing that magic figure of $193000 burdens your mind... Maybe it's a marketing gimmick but the underlying fact is that it's business...BIG business... Everyone wants the bigger piece of the fair share of pie... don't we...

  3. "Is a bschool in the business of education or merely a glorified job placement agency?"

    The problem with Indian Management Institutes is that they choose to highlight their placement stats more than anything else. They conveniently ignore the fact that placements are a part of the B-School experience and try to highlight it to such an extent that wannabe admits are only interested in the salaries of the students who have passed out. The media also deserves some blame for this.
    The Management institutes should try to highlight their curriculum, the research work they do and other activities in addition to the placement activities. If we need to raise to the standard of US business schools, we need to move away from sole focus on placements stats. Also, these stats hardly reveal the truth as they would include anything and everything the company might spend on the employee in the salary reported.

  4. Meanwhile (before corrective actions could be taken), people need to understand that comparing average salaries of comparable institutes means nothing - even if you take the correct figures.
    And the highest salary figure - dont even look at it.

    Why - while choosing the job after MBA, the job profile is the first criteria, salary comes next. I am not undermining the importance of salary, but there are so many companies on Day 2 / Day 3 which pay much more then the Day 1 companies, but people would in any case choose Day 1 companies.
    Then the issue of difference between CTC and gross salaries.

  5. Like most people, for me too an MBA from an IIM is also just a ticket to a good pay package. But it would be interesting to know the lowest salary as well. At least, I would know what is the least that I would be making if I screwed up real bad.

  6. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

  7. Would you be kind enough to make the neccessary corrections in the last post too? Otherwise, a huge number of people reaching your previous post through casual searches on IIMs, might not even come to know of ur "Clarification".

  8. Thanks for brining up the correction ...

  9. Ah... now for once, (no offence), I find something very relevant and which was being ignored by one and all..... the pathetic fudging methods implemented by IIM B. Please consider the following articles SAYS THE AVG SALARY IS 9 Lacs (Official Release) SAYS THE FIGURE IS 9.8 Lacs (Though, initially it als contained the figure of 9 Lacs

    Now, this happened during the period the prospects were in double minds as to which IIM to choose. The official (and initial) avg figures across the Big 3 read 9.81 (C), 9.72 (A), and 9 (B). This was repulsive to many prospects who primarily look into placement figures. Also, B boasted of highest domestic salaries of 30 Lacs, which meant that an avg of 9 indicates that the salary structure is poor!
    However, to attract these prospects and give an impression of it being equal to C and A, B blatanltly changed its figure to 9.8, and got it published across portals like CoolAvenues etc........

    Moreover, such fudging issues are nothing new with B, and they've been blatantly been doing it for the last 5 yrs or so.

  10. I think, the reason this come up time and again is because of the nature of bschool education in India. Bschools are almost seen as 'arbitrage' opportunities to make a quick hit ('Ginni', above, talks about this). This is why every td&h (read tom dick and harry) from every td&h school, having done any td&h course and secured td&h marks feels that putting 6 months into CAT and a few interviews will turn their virtually unemployable status into stardom. I think this immaturity leads to people getting worked up over salaries of 9.5 vs 8.7 etc. and consequently leads business schools to compete on numbers.

    Unless we have 3-4 years work-ex as a pre-requisite we will unfortunately keep on seeing this pathetic number game.

  11. Rashmi - Great analysis of Indian Bschool hype. BSchools should be seen as a place to acquire well-rounded general management and leadership skills rather than focussing on the immediate job prospects. That said, I don't think there is anything wrong or unethical in placement offices wooing company HRs or the other way around. Their job is to increase opportunities for students, so a little wining, dining and special treatment to people that matter is not a bad idea. This is a fine line though, and should not be overdone.

  12. The question you raised is very valid, are our Indian B-schools a place of education or a placement agency?

    Since time & ages the role of eduation in India has been related to the employability of the person, the source of his daily bread & butter. This has formed a psyche of the Indian mindset, that the benefits of education are quantifiable only through the change in the employability of the student. That being the a crucial factor in decision making has become a marketing tool. But in the process it has detoriated the educational environment by a mile. I would like to cite a few examples...

    1- Students are not interested in courses which directly relate to employability like ethics, CSR etc.

    2- A student who ones decide his specializations tends to ignore the value of other subjects, which actually narrows the focus.

    3- After placements students are least interested in attending any lectures or courses.

    but this is only one side, If we look education from an industry perspective, it is the only industry where your consumer is your base raw material. The perspective of Institutes have changed, they do not treat students as their consumers, instead the Industry is treated as a consumer. Almost every institute has a commitee or a an agency or some channel for Corporate(also called Placement) Interface, another for Aspirant Interface, But very few institutes really consider or have a forum for student interface. They know that once the student has taen admission he is trapped for a period of two years, he has made a decision and he is stuck, now you can hold it for ransom. The ideas as ridiculous as "debarring students from palcements" for anything as if the placement is the only thing that it has to offer to the student. But what does a student do if he is not satisfied with the institute, he has already put in his money, his crucial year(s) of his life, his career can go for a toss for raising his voice.

    But an interesting thing it after all this system is not working on value, but on Win-win Student once placed is too charmed with the package salary and hardly cares what happened in the college. Institute gets his money places the student. Industry gets it slogging donkeys (In India they say its "cheap labour"). The end point is who cares about the quality of education, the primary objective of the institutes' existance. What is really being produced from the centre of learning? all these questons need to be answered

  13. Who bothers about real Education. It has got totally commercialized since practically everybody has to bow to the dictates of the market.

  14. Rashmi,

    Your take on companies doing background checks and resume fudging rampant in the IT field, please. :)

  15. Rashmi,
    I read all your related posts including the "Ethics of MBA - part I" and the ensuing comments.
    I am not in the management line but I agree with other commentators here that the topic of ethics is not confined to business schools alone. The school I went to, had a "Moral Science" course for many years and our teachers drilled the value of honesty and other virtues into us from a very young age. The influence of my parents, other elders and school teachers on me, has been tremendous although I don't say that I am 100% honest all the time.
    I feel Shikari Shambhu does have a point when he talks about fear in the previous post. Religion and belief in God also definitely contribute to a person's bar of principles (though not always..there are enough people who misinterpret religion and commit crimes).
    I can understand your anguish that someone from your institute (or rather group of institutes) has been caught. However, in your first post, you have mentioned that you went to privileged institutes where ethics were taught. IIMs may be the crowning gems of our management education but do they shoulder the bulk of the moral moulding of students? I think not. I should be even more disturbed if someone from my high school or family did some such thing.
    The foundation of one's value system is laid very early in life and if a person has already imbibed the feeling that dishonesty is the only thing that pays, then it is very difficult to undo that, even at a Harvard or IIM. Secondly, even if ten students receive the same instruction regarding morals, all of them need not be equally righteous. Eg: our own Mahabharata.
    Medicine is supposed to be the noble profession, service to society and all that yet we find doctors who cheat. Same thing with the judiciary and the police. These are professions where ethics are the bulwark, the very backbone of their existence and yet there are many who break the law.
    Lastly, as someone else has pointed out rightly, even an honest person sometimes gets swept away by the current when he/she sees peers and superiors blatantly indulging in shady activities and justifying it as all part of life. It is very difficult to be honest in an organisation where dishonesty rules and that is why exceptions such as Manjunath are heroes. Corrupt systems can be changed slowly, with individuals taking responsibility.

  16. to quote a friend, who graduated from IIML in 2005, "arre yaar, yeh media waale jo fenkte rehte hain about IIM salaries..its wayy too inflated.. real picture is no way near what they portray.."
    horse's mouth said it all!

    ps: did that college survey thingie see the light of the day yet?

  17. yeah CV fudger did get punished. hope it will be warning to others too

    Every Day Space

  18. rashmi: in response to your last line, i think the relevance of b-schools - premium or otherwise - is lost unless it can place its students after graduation and ensure they're offered the best jobs in the market.

    even your favourite IIPM can make the cut if from next year it somehow manages to place its students in the best of corporations and ensures the salaries offered are at par with the IIMs :)

    success in placement is the marketing tool of b-schools ...

    btw, have u joined BW full-time?

  19. I was a part of the graduating batch of 2006 at IIMB and there is a much more innocent reason for the rise in the salary figures...what had actually happened was that the junior placement committee was in a tearing hurry to come out with the figures as that would have ensured greater media attention etc. and thus they made a condervative estimate/assume quite a few figuresto be constant from the lst year's package...then when the actual figures were circulated it came to attention that the figures were on the lower side/...i know that it would be really silly for me to assume that people would take my word and i would have done the same had i been in their position but if we reconsider the chain of events it could all have been avoided if this inter IIM show of one upmanship is trashed...

  20. Sunil, don't you think your explanation still leaves a lot of gaps??

    Previous batch in IIMB had around 180 students
    Assuming 50 had foreign offers,
    the remaining 130 should have contributed to the domestic average salary.

    for your average domestic salary to go up from 9 lpa to 9.8 lpa among the 130 students the total salary increase should have been 130*0.8 which is 104 lacs!!!

    It is absolutely impossible to explain this huge discrepancy of 104 lacs as a mere miscalculation. It is quite obvious that the figure has been manipulated to a large extent if not completely.

    I agree to your point on inter-IIM one upmanship but it is fairly obvious that IIMB has been marketing itself rather agressively (for lack of better words) over the last one year or so during whcih i have been tracking for schools to apply to. When one of the players is changing the rules, the other IIMs have no alternative but to follow. From what I hear from my friends in the IIMs (A and C of course)

    Placements A=B=C
    Placement reports B>A>C

    Good investigative journalism rashmi. I for one will be reading the placement reports rather carefully this time around.

  21. once an avid reader of your mag... infact i think i've even met you one a couple of occasions.. reading this post i am reminded why the editorial was usually my fav bit of the mag

  22. Ms. enchantress,
    While taking an initial estimate, one does not, repeat DOES NOT, sum up all the salaries to find out the salaries. What you are talking about is not an estimate, it is the actual figure!! When you get all the salaries, it is then only you sum up all the salaries!!

    I am not prone to making assumptions, but it is pretty clear you have absolutely no idea what a Junior Placement Rep goes through, starting a month before placement interviews. A JPR has to sit up daily into the wee hours of the morning, checking resumes... yes sometimes, the fudging incident may pass through,... but I know from personal experience that the resume checking is very thorough.

    On Day 0 (and not to speak of the sleepless week they will spend), the entire weight of the onerous repsonsibility a JPR carries, bears down on his/her shoulders. And with a few sleepless nights, they are quite prone to make errors.

    And the magnitude of the error, now that you are getting technical about this, 0.8/9 = 8.888888....%

    Is that so humungous for a person under such tremendous pressure?

    Of course, you have combed the statistics so finely,... so Ms. E, can you tell me how many companies are on campus taking interviews, at the same time, within a space of 5-6 hours?

    And whose responsibility is it to schedule these interviews so that the very much-maligned MBAs get into the right room at the right time? If you haven't guessed it till now, it is the JPR.

    Now, the high salary of the MBAs.... Why should we even publicise it? Ironically, IIMB did not publicise the figure... it was a reporter who went to the fellow's room in the hostel, without going through the proper channel who did it..

    And he had already been working for a similar figure. Don't you think he deserved that much after 2 years of study?

    And why are such salaries justified... tell me guys, whenever something goes wrong, whose head is it on the line? When a client leaves a company, who is blamed? The engineer sitting there who didn't care to test the code, or the CEO? Who is it?

    If an employee due to sheer carelessness, makes a mistake or gets involved in an accident who is the face on TV?

    Remember Who got jailed? Was it his fault?

    What my point is, the salary is not for the training, but for the responsibility, for the sheer levels of pressure, he has to face...

    If anybody has a rebuttal to the above arguments, I'd like to hear it.

  23. @Vivek
    dude... on one hand you are talking about responsibility and stuff... and on other you are simply absolving your "Junior Placement Rep" of responsibility of any kind...

    as far as I get it, if you take a responsibility and anything goes wrong with it, your ass should be on the line of fire... and don't give me this pressure thing, nobody forces you to be a rep... its always by your own choice and ofcourse you are not always doing it for "public good"..

  24. Just a small point Vivek

    You are referring to AVERAGE salaries here not individual salaries.

    So a difference of 9% in Average salary is HUGE! It doesn not mean 1-2 students had their salaries revised by 9%. It means that an ENTIRE batch of 130 students got a hike of 9%, assuming all your previous figures were for some inexplicable reason based on past trends.

    Also I agree with Shikari above. You cannot escape responsibility by saying 'we were under pressure'. Then why take up the job in the first place?Are IIMB JPRs the only ones under pressure? Also I would expect a top tier Bschool like IIMB to have better verification process before releasing a figure to the media.

    Didn't you guys hold a press conference to release the placement stats including 193K, Why blame the media? Weren't even the personal lettters written by the students to the director made public?
    Agreed you wanna play the media game but why blame everything on the media if you can't get your figures right?

    104 lakhs is a huge discrepancy and you cannot wish it away as a calculation mistake by a sleepless JPR.

    So much for ethics in Bschools.

  25. Ok
    @Krish, @Shikari,

    I don't know what your backgrounds are... I suggest you go and find out what was the level of hike from salaries of 2004 to that of 2005. Then you'll understand why the estimates which were conservative, went a little wrong.

    I know for a fact that at my engineering school, that one company that offered a salary of 5 lakhs last year, offered a salary of 6.5lpa the next. There was an industry boom, the salaries being offered this year, were phenomenal...

    Is it not possible that such an extraordinary jump can be discounted in the normal scheme of things?

  26. @Vivek

    I do not intend to make this a one-on-one but just to answer your query

    I am not talking about salary hikes by the companies coming to IIMB, I am referring to the increase in salary noted by your place reps. It is true that salaries have increased but why is IIMB the ONLY IIM to have pushed up its average salary??

    It would be naive to believe that IIMB with all its media buzz would be willing to actually go "conservative" in the beginning and then come out with corrections later.

    1. There is a very strong indication that average salaries have been hiked up to match the other 2 IIMs.

    2. If by a slim chance there has actually been a mistake by JPRs then you have no one to blame but yourselves for rushing to the media with half cooked figures.

    Hype cannot create a good Business school. IIMB is sure positioned to be among the best in the country but there is no need for you to inflate or adjust figures to prove points.I hope that better sense prevails and we do not see such unpleasant discoveries next year too.

    PS: You have addressed only one issue of what has been discussed. Shikari also talked about your "absolving" of your JPRs. Do respond if possible.

    No offence to IIMB folks but this sure does stink.

  27. "IIMs are merely catering to them by highlighting teh packages though they can choose not to do so by the sheer dint of their reputation. "

    The fact of the matter is that the reputation of any B-school in India, can be judged only by its fat salaries. We all know about MICA being an excellent B-school for journalism, but still most ppl will opt for IIMA over MICA, even if they want to go for a career in media. The reason, simply being, 'fat salaries' and 'the brand name'. I don't see anything wrong in marketing gimmicks like these. Particularly the IIMs can be excused of this, when there are institutes like IIPM, which are the greater evil as far as 'fudging' is concerned.

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  29. I don't think that a JPR's or anybody's fulfilment of responsibilities can be held hostage to their long hrs or is one of those things that an IIM prepares you far as Ms Enchantress' comments are concerned I can only say that it would help all of us if we understand facts and do the relevant due dilligence before making a comment...also i made a foolish assumption that all junta making comments here would be familiar with the methodology used so sorry for that
    1. When i said that last years' figures were taken i meant that for some companies who had not disclosed their salary figures, they just assumed that the figures are what they were the last time around (which would make the whole calculation awry)
    2. I don't know why so much emphasis is being put on this arbit figure of 104 lakh...first, for domestic salary we take only the DOMESTIC placements and as there were ~50-55 foreign acceptances we are concerned about only 120-125 ppl ,second as the placements got over on day 2 itself there were not many companies in bracket below 8 which got many ppl (given this years' placement scene) and the hikes which we have seen are really something so the movement from 9 to 9.8 is not as huge as the cumulative would suggest (just look at this...McK oicked up 9 ppl with 14-15 lacs. Bain pickd up 3 with 16 lacs, BCG picjed up 5 with 15 lacs, ML picked 3 with 16 lacs and these are just off the mind figures that i am talking abt...)
    3.Whoever said that Placements @A=B=C did not get his facts right...placements@A are still head and shoulders above the rest and i admit this being an IIMBian but as far as publicity is concerned i don't see how higher publicity makes a school worse off
    4. Last but not the least, for ppl who are not MBAs and who read this extremely informative blog for information please note that in case u get ABC cal and u wanna make a choice please do not base ur judgemnt on who had the higher average sal..i think everybody here has that much sense but still in case...

  30. Nice take! Will have to read this whole thread in leisure. Keep them coming....

  31. Continuing with this morbid fascination

    1. Ms Enchantress DID take into consideration your point on domestic placements. The figure of 104 lacs is reached by considering ONLY 130 for the domestic average NOT 180. Take a look at her calculations.

    2. Frankly most of your justifications seem based on assumptions as well and lack any serious "insider info"

    3. The point is NOT if salaries for MBA's have increased in India!! The question is why was IIMB the ONLY IIM to have increased its average salary? IIMA and IIMC also released their reports around the same time and we haven't seen any "adjustments" in their figures. Also to a sceptic it looks very suspicious as to how the average salary rose right upto IIMC's average salary of 9.81 but did not cross it!!

    4.I have gone through the placement reports of the three IIMs and actually IIMA-IIMC reports seem very similar and give some very clear numbers on the number of accepts in day zero. Also apart from Barclays the other offers actually seem pretty similar! Both of the reports are available in their respective websites btw and are prominently highlighted.

    5.IIMB on the other hand doesn't seem to have its report anywhere on its website!!! And the "official" coolavenues report does not provide any breakup of the kinds A and C have provided. The very fact that the report was not highlighted in the website or even a link provided is very surprising given the amount of noise that was generated.In fact I was able to locate the 2005 report but not 2006. Definitely raises quite a few suspicions as to why the very same Bschool which tomtomed its placements so hard hides its placement report from public view!

    Bottomline to me is that IIMB needs to get its act right. And no one said publicity was wrong, but publicising what one does NOT have is wrong. I have spent far too much time in this intriguing case of the hyped up salaries. I think I'll retire now. Peace

  32. Interesting facts coming out ...

    I cant believe IIMB can release a figure that a JPR just estimated ... search a better reason guys ...

    And where are the company wise accepts for slot 0, which A and C made public ....

    In this mad race ... the larger purpose of building brand IIM is defeated ...

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