Wednesday, April 19, 2006

George Bush vs the Graduate Student

Every once in a while you read a piece of news that makes you blink and go,"This can't be true!" Well today was one such day for me. As I scanned through the TOI after lunch (yes I know it's a morning paper but I get 4 of them, so...) there was this report on page 1 which briefly caught my attention:

'Kill Bush' call lands Indian in US jail
WASHINGTON: An Indian graduate student in the US who posted inflammatory messages on an internet bulletin board has been arrested and charged with threatening to kill President Bush, First Lady Laura Bush, Vice-president Dick Cheney and top Republican leaders.

Hoga koi bewakoof, I thought and that would have been that except the next line read...

Vikram Buddhi, a Purdue University graduate student, allegedly posted the detailed and threatening messages on a Yahoo finance board.

This couldn't be. Vikram Kapoor or Vikram Shah or Vikram Agarwal there can be hundreds. But Vikram Buddhi I know only one. He studied in school with me.

The maths whiz
Vikram Buddhi was a short, dark, quiet boy. I must have exchanged less than 5 words in the 6 years we spent in St Joseph's High School, Colaba. But we had a connection. I was the 'girl who always came first'. He was the 'boy who came second'.

But we didn't really compete. There was never any danger of Vikram taking over my place because while he was brilliant at Maths and Science his Hindi absolutely sucked. And he didn't care to improve it so he could improve his rank. It simply did not matter to him.

Anyhow, we passed out of school and lost touch with Vikram but a couple of years later, there was a shocking bit of news. Vikram's father, Capt B K Subbarao, was arrested at Mumbai airport for allegedly smuggling out sensitive defence documents.

It was really a tale of jealousy and intrigue - Capt Subbarao was falsely implicated but it took many many years for him to prove his innocence. The sad story is extremely well documented here.

Subbarao was charged with trying to smuggle secret documents out of the country under the Official Secrets Act and the Atomic Energy Act. A vicious propaganda campaign was launched against him through the national and vernacular press to build a case, suggesting that he was caught at the airport carrying atomic and defence secrets of the country on board a foreign flight.

But all that Subbarao was carrying with him was his Ph.D thesis approved by IIT Bombay, and other literature on nuclear technology which is freely available and can be readily accessed from various universities and research centres in the world. In fact, Subbarao had not violated any law.

The scientists of BARC and DAE, who had failed to match Subbarao's ingenuity in nuclear science and technology, were immensely successful in causing harm to his body, mind and reputation. They used the legal system and state authority to fulfil their ends. Neither the Constitution of India nor the Courts were of any help to him....

The court case dragged on for five years. It was placed before three Magistrates, five Sessions judges, 21 High Court judges and 13 Supreme Court judges. In the meantime, Subbarao had spent time in the jail studying law and appeared-in-person in the Sessions Court, Bombay High Court and the Supreme Court where the case reached for a second time. Finally, in October 1991, the Bombay High Court passed Subbarao's acquittal orders. The appeal against the acquittal was dismissed by the Supreme Court in 1993.

What happened to Vikram, we wondered? We learnt he too ran from pillar to post during this period. "So sad," people whispered."Such a bright boy, he was".

Frankly, it's hard to comprehend the kind of stress he must've been through at this point. But eventually, he returned to his studies and went off to the US. I bumped into his mother once, a few years ago, and asked about him. She said he was "OK"...

And so, it's really sad and surreal to read this new piece of news. I searched for 'proof' that this is the same guy. No pictures turned up on the net. But this was enough:

Vikram wrote his M.Sc. dissertation on Affine and Projective Varieties, which was completed in 1994. Currently he is doing Ph.D. in Algebraic Geometry at Purdue University, USA.

I just know it's him. There can't be two Maths geniuses with this name. And although I am sure even today he must appear to be a kind and gentle soul in the way most 'lost in their own world' mathematical types are, there must have been rage inside him. Simmering there, waiting to explode.

Sadly, misdirected at George Bush. And in a country paranoid enough to mistake just about anyone for a terrorist today.

I'm not justifying his rantings - it is kind of thing you do not do in a post 9/ 11 America. That you should not do if you have chosen to make your home in that country. But now that the deed is done, I hope he is able to come out of it with dignity.

May God give his family strength, after all they've been through. And the lesson is: think about what you want to say, before you say it. Even on the internet.

Especially on the internet!

Online, on record
What you post can and will be used against you - if not by Uncle Sam or Aunty Sonia -by your current or prospective employer. New York Daily News reports

An increasing number of employers are investigating potential hires online to find out more about an applicant than what's on their résumé...

Sure, you may not have intentionally posted something controversial about yourself online, but from blogs to dating profiles, the Web has become a place where people air dirty laundry without a thought, making it a dangerous place to mix business with pleasure.

Just ask 27-year-old Colleen Kluttz. Type the freelance television producer's name into Google and the second item that comes up is her popular My Space profile. This online social network has become an outpost for photographic and written self-expression, but it's not always an asset in landing a job. "A friend of mine posted a picture of me on My Space with my eyes half closed and a caption that suggests I've smoked something illegal," says Kluttz.

While the caption was a joke, Kluttz now wonders whether the past two employers she interviewed with thought it was so funny. Both expressed interest in hiring Kluttz, but at the 11th hour went with someone else

And yeah, blogging can be equally 'dangerous'. The same article recounts the tale of Ciara Healy, who applied for a job at a university.
When a member of the search committee Googled her, he found she had called him a "belligerent jerk," though not by name, and canceled the interview.


Coincidentally, just today I received a phone call from a guy who is an HR manager with a company in Bangalore who wants me to delete certain comments he made on my blog. Because he got carried away and used unparliamentary language and now when he googles his name, this comment appears on the very first page thrown up.

A wicked part of me says, let him suffer but sigh! the noble part wrests back control and I do try to do the needful. But the trashcan icon just does not appear next to his comment and I am clueless how else one can delete in blogger...

Life is strange, the virtual world stranger!


  1. You may delete the comment, but what about the Big Brother who remembers everything and serves it as "cached copy"?

  2. Wow Shashikant!

    All you wanted to comment after reading the whole blog was that the HR Manager's problem wont be solved just by deleting the comment..

  3. Sad to read about the guy !

  4. Really freaky! :-S

  5. As an aside, did you know, you could be sued for using "Google" as a verb?

    Don't know how NY daily news reports overlooked that.

  6. Well, blogging has its +ves as well as -ves..
    While it provides a platform for rants/raves/talk about anything, it also exposes an individual (and his thoughts/ideas) to the world.
    What'er it is - one thing Bloggers should not forget is ::
    Big Brother is always watching Bloggers!!
    And if one does a *thought-crime*, Big Brother will punish!!

  7. Oh, he is that Subbarao's son kya? I always thought that there was something fishy about that entire episode but can hardly believe that there was *no one* in the entire BARC and DAE who could match Subbarao's ingenuity as written at that website.

    After I read your blog, I was reminded yet again that the world is a small place after all.

  8. The scientists of BARC and DAE, who had failed to match Subbarao's ingenuity in nuclear science and technology, were immensely successful in causing harm to his body, mind and reputation.


    Well, Rashmi, I know that you have quoted this and these are not your words, but the source seems to be biased.

    Now, scientists at BARC and DAE dont have anything better to do, is it. And by the way, I have never heard of Subbarao's name as some great scientist of India whose "ingenuity in nuclear science and technology" could not be matched.

    Agreed, the chap might have been falsely implicated, but by whom is something I doubt.

    But sad to hear about Subbarao. Maybe it was just the technicians at DAE and BARC who implicated Subbarao. The website makes it seem that its scientists who were responsible. Now, media is really very mediocre in India these days, isnt it.

  9. aaarghhhh!!
    bloggging & all the krap involved!!

    wouldnt' disclaimers help!!?? ;))

    just checked up googling my name
    throws up my college student info..

    but i dont think employers in india are into checking blog background and all that!! and duz it really matter to them!!??

  10. Rashmi:
    More info for you since this guy was your classmate

    The tragic story of Dr. Subbarao:

    "Indira Gandhi started the atv project...she entrusted the design of the reactor to the BARC.These chaps however simply couldnt come up with a design.At this point of time B.K.Subbarao, a capt . in the Navy rejected a design which WAS submitted...this was particularly justifiable as he was a phd from iit,powai and he was part of a team sent by the navy to "interface" with BARC.Things rapidly became worse...3 more designs were submitted by BARC,each worse than the other and the capt. sticking to his job,rejected them all.The "bosses" at barc had their knives out for this guy as the continuous rejections meant that the next tranche of funds wouldnt come for the atv project(to BARC).Subbarao was really frustrated and finally let out that the designs were ridiculous and even a team of naval students trained by him could do a better job in thermocol!I.Gandhi gave him the job of the reactor design......Sometime later,Capt.Subbarao was scheduled to leave for the U.S. ,when he was picked up from Sahar airport by intelligence officials...all his suitcase was found to contain was his p.h.d.thesis- a public document.Hew as charged with being an american spy and leaking the secrets of the ATV to them...Over the next year,he was tortured and repeatedly "asked" to confess. The capt. stuck to his guns and did something quite remarkable....he took up the defense for his case himself,in doing so he became an "expert" in law.Ultimately,after our usual " process of law"-years in fact,the GOI was forced to admit,it had *NO* direct evidence against Capt.subbarao and he was acquitted...what came out in the trial was that BARC HEAD HONCHOS called in their pals in the GOI intelligence setup(RAW/IB IIRC) TO ARRANGE a party for the Capt. before he left..needless to say,all those chaps would be provided immunity...despite the efforts of the court.He still hasnt got his due..A typical example of how things work in our country"

    "These are further links about the subbarao case: This link even elaborates on how the courts were a witness to the charade carried out by the GOI in the name of the official secrets act: Justice Ahmadi,one of the judges who repeatedly denied subbarao his rights later on became the CJI. "Subbarao was kept in torturous police custody for three months while the police searched for ways to invent a false case against him. On August 9,1988 the Attorney-General of India, K. Parasaran, issued a sanction under sub- section (2) of Section 26 of the Atomic Energy Act 1962 to start prosecution against Subbarao. He was transferred from police custody to judicial custody. For 20 months, Subbarao was shifted between three central prisons of Maharashtra at Bombay, Thane and Nasik." "To add insult to injury, even a Supreme Court Judge, Justice A.M.Ahmadi (later Chief Justice of India) was taken in by the false affidavit filed by the special prosecutors (Mrs. Manjula Rao and Mr. B.R.Handa) and the police, on behalf of the State of Maharashtra. When a conscientious judge of the Bombay High Court tried to render some justice to Subbarao and granted him temporary medical bail, Justice Ahmadi acted high-handedly, not only cancelling the bail but also passing strictures against the High Court judge. Justice Ahmadi also repeatedly refused permission to Subbarao to appear-in-person before the Supreme Court. The unfortunate part was that even after it became clear that the case got bolstered from the false affidavit filed before the Supreme Court, there was no zeal in Justice Ahmadi to remedy the miscarriage of justice caused by his orders. As a result, an innocent, respectable and highly talented man spent 20 months in jail. The court case dragged on for FIVE years. It was placed before three Magistrates, five Sessions judges, 21 High Court judges and 13 Supreme Court judges. In the meantime, Subbarao had spent time in the jail studying law and appeared-in-person in the Sessions Court, Bombay High Court and the Supreme Court where the case reached for a second time. Finally, in October 1991, the Bombay High Court passed Subbarao's acquittal orders. The appeal against the acquittal was dismissed by the Supreme Court in 1993. The case ended in the Supreme Court on a bitter note for Subbarao. He was awarded Rs. 25,000 as "costs for his mental suffering and financial loss" but all those who had caused him the anguish and mastered his prosecution, went scot-free."

    More from Google, Vikram finished MSc in Maths from IITB in 1994.

    His criminal case report:

    What can be more sad for this family?

  11. Anonymous9:03 PM

    I dont quite see the new thing in this? Heck, Indian-rubber stamp-presidents are also protected on a similar level.

    And the US Secret service folks supposedly take such things at a very serious level - especially after it lost Presidents' on its watch. And nearly lost Reagan. At least one of them was corroborated to some threatening letters received.

  12. Well it is definitely wrong to instigate ppl to violence even on websites. Freedom of speech is Ok but there should be limits.

    What about India where even state cabinet Minsters call for murder of a cartoonist and religious leaders issue fatwas in the open.

  13. purdue has lot of good science stuff to its credit. U rightly said "hoga koi bewakoof"

  14. freaky and makes u want to censor your own thoughts .. never know just in case..!!
    sad considering we want others to emulate us in following democracy.. but are we really free??

  15. Well dubya is scarred to death..he just can not stomach the realities in Iraq,Iran even States...catching innocent students is d only time-pass he can engage in nowadayz.

  16. In the various posted messages, Buddhi urged the Web sites readers to bomb the United States and for them to rape American and British women and mutilate them, according to court documents cited by the paper.

    What a jerk.

  17. Vikram Buddhi? Or Viparit Buddhi? Anyway it isn't about him. This happens in India too, some idiot sent a letter to Narendra Modi and got arrested and security agencies are right in taking this seriously. But what's stopping them from abusing this power?

    Although most conspiracies are hatched in utmost privacy and the web can not be as easily used as a source for instigation (because of the number of opinions it would elicit from readers), some people will be used for "setting an example" and settling scores.

    Are scare tactics such as these permissible in a democracy? Freedom of speech should not be abused but the power to rule is abused much more openly.

    Hope we are not moving to an age where Anything we THINK can and will be held against us.

  18. Well...Woke up on the 19th to that article..

    SO was searching on the net to know more about it.. bumped into your post..

    I personally have a different view point on it..

    wrote a bit on the topic

    I feel America Always prided itself by being considered the most free nation of all time..
    and after all the recent hoopla with regards to freedom of speech over the Danish Cartoons...

    I feel all this incident goes on to re establish the facts about western double standards..
    its like for bush killing embryoes for stem cell research is unethical..
    but killing people alive and kicking.. in wars declared over fictitious matter is perfectly ethical..


  19. Hi Rashmi,

    Those comments from some unknown person on Bharat-Rakshak are based on propaganda from so-called anti-nuclear groups like Manushi (Sudhindra and Sanghamitta Gadekar). Generally speaking Capt. Subbarao has become a cause celebre among people who don't like the Department of Atomic Energy in India. The fact that these lies are repeated by people even on Bharat-Rakshak is proof of the effectiveness of this propaganda. Since his release Dr. Subbarao has gone on to make a series of unproven allegations against DAE accusing it of participating black market deals of nuclear technology. All of these allegations have been faithfully reproduced by the Manushi crowd all of whom seem get visas to the US at the drop of a hat, and get all manner of funding from the same "foundations" that fund the bulk fo the non-proliferation initiatives at places like NTI and NEPC.

    What happened in the Subbarao case is simple. As India came to have nuclear capability, Madam Gandhi decided that India would subscribe to No First Use, and that the nuclear submarine would be the vehicle for India's guarenteed second strike strategy. Building a nuclear submarine was am extremely difficult undertaking that had taken many industrialized nations decades. Mind you these were nations that had almost a century of experience building submarines from scratch.

    DAE was asked to put forth exploratory proposals for a nuclear reactor. Subbarao given his background was part of a team of people that was asked to interface between the Navy and the DAE. Had things gone well, Subbarao would have become a national hero, an Indian Hyman Rickover.

    As the proposals were merely exploratory and the designers of the reactor were preoccupied with producing a sustainable and robust power source, a toy reactor to test on land and they were less than mindful of the Navy's preoccupations. The thinking at BARC was that once the core was designed the Navy could work to engineer around the size and management issue. There were *no* documents available (as they are today on the internet) on what constitutes a working nuclear reactor. The Indian Navy had no experience of working with a submarine nuclear reactor and only had very limited experience working with submarines in general.

    In this atmosphere of confusion and fog of uncertainity, Capt. Subbarao proved to be the achilles heel in the project. No one knew where he got the sense of conviction that he espoused on matters of nuclear submarine affairs. After rejecting four designs, Capt. Subbarao began to question DAE's commitment to nuclear submarine project. He went directly to the Chief Naval Staff and thence to Madam Gandhi herself.

    After a marathon two hour long meeting with Madame Prime Minister, he was reassured that his concerns would be addressed but he continued to agitate and finally Madame Gandhi unable to make further technical sense of the affair chose to make him incharge of the reactor design, a position that technically already enjoyed. He interpreted the PM's views to mean that he had complete control over the design of the reactor - this was communication gap.

    The project floundered and what exactly happened afterwards is known only to a very few people. Capt. Subbarao's strange and distruptive behavior on a project of such sensitivity had aroused suspicisions in the intelligence community. Although this was not the first time that this had happened and other staff in high offices had been investigated before, however this was the first time that an entire project hung in the balance.

    What happened next is not known to anyone except the intelligence people. I suspect that the counter-intelligence people were not able to give Capt. Subbarao a clean chit or perhaps the strategist in the National Security Council could not determine what exactly Capt. Subbarao was up to. I suspect that Capt. Subbarao got wind of this. There has to date been no convincing explanation for what Capt. Subbarao was doing leaving for the US. You understand the head of a major national defence project doesn't just get up and leave for the US. I also strongly suspect that Capt. Subbarao's thesis was not a public document as is suggested by the anti-nuclear crowd. The intelligence people suspected that he was supplying details of the reactor to the Americans.

    What happened afterwards was standard as spy stories go. Every overnment does what it can to minimize the damage. In India the standard procedure is to limit judicial scrutiny to a select panel, also very little press coverage is devoted to the affair and it is as if nothing happened. This should explain the party held for him. The suspect if he is not killed, is usually held in custody without a public trial. The higher his official position, the more complete the denial of his rights. This is the same everywhere.

    In the Subbarao case, the added problem was that any attempt to try him would result in further exposure of the submarine project so he was almost completely shielded from the Judicial intervention. That is what led to the complicated treatment that Capt. Subbarao recieved at the hands of the otherwise impeccable Indian Supreme Court.

    Over time the Submarine project went from strength to strength and by the early 90s most of what Capt. Subbarao might have known became archival. So the efforts to hold him in custody were relaxed and by 1993 after due process was effected, Capt. Subbarao was released.

    In this ordeal his family has suffered immensely and for the courts of India. Like the Majors in the Samba Spy scandal, Capt. Subbarao became a signpost to the world that something was wrong with India's judiciary. By the early 90s the Indian judiciary was already under attack for having effectively sanctioned police excesses under the infamous TADA. And thus Capt. Subbarao became a prisoner of conscience for the India's courts. These factors contributed to his release and appointment as a supreme court lawyer.

    I have heard the Subbarao story from several angles and from all manner of persons. The enduring impression that I have is of an intelligent but slightly vain man, perhaps one who was socially challenged and could not find his place amongst his peers. I have never found a satisfactory answer to the questions that haunted many who were involved in this case - namely where did Capt. Subbarao's sense of conviction come from on these issues? how did he become so deeply convinced that he knew what he was talking about when neither did he nor the Indian Navy had access to any information about these complex systems and their performance.

    I can't imagine that Capt. Subbarao would be very happy with the DAE. Given the ease with which he sits among the anti-nuclear community, I think the Americans actually like him. I also don't imagine there is any way he is very happy with the fact that the Americans and the DAE are now finally on the same page - thanks to the Bush government's Indo-US nuclear deal. I would not be surprised if Capt. Subbarao conveyed his distaste to Vikram.

    Now Vikram, that is another story. Your kind and gentle friend when in IITB actually threatened to stab a fellow hostellite. IIRC he held the screw driver to the boy's neck. He suspected that the boy was involved in some sort of prank.

    I think at the time the case made before the hostel 8 warden was that the Vikram Buddhi was deeply troubled by the suffering he endured as a result of his father's incarceration and his social anxiety was a result of that.

    That still leaves the question - did he intend to use the screwdriver to stab the boy he caught? Does the Secret Service's dilemma seem clearer to you now?

    Today Capt. Subbarao claims his son was framed when his son's lawyer claims he was exercising free speech.

    The dichotomy is interesting but it appears the apple does not fall far from the tree.

  20. What a tragic story of Dr. Subbarao! I think the travesty of justice in India is laid out so threadbare.

    No wonder that stressful environment changed the genius of young Vikram into a career failure (8 years in a phd program, then switched major in his 30's!) and the crazy threats (incidentally, the alleged details are sickening -- inciting rape, mutiliation, bombing, racial hatred, etc. etc.). No one can tell whether a tortured childhood like that grows into someone just talking crazy or inciting others to act out or himslef acts out.

    Kudos to the author for a thoughtful narration of Vikram's background and others for shedding more details on the Subbarao issue.

    Unfortunately, the majority of commenters are about settling scores against America and Bush than either reading through the whole story of how Subbarao was chewed and thrown away by their own system (still there, screwing many lives, it could come get you too!) or how methodic the plausible cause case has been made out in the referenced PDF by the secret service to bring Vikram to trial.

    Perhaps it is time to compare and contrast the two justice systems. Was Subbarao ever afforded even this detailed chargesheet? How quickly Vikram got his chargesheet instead of months and years of police torture preceding it? And Vikram will get his full jury trial -- for those who don't know, a jury is a set of ordinary people who observe the trial and decide whether guilty or not.

    Is that too much to ask of the majority of the sound byte generation?

    On the face of it, Vikram did not just make a one-off comment "kill bush or something" (itself a crime in most countries, including India) but he went about repeatedly, writing what al qaeda websites do in spewing racial, national hatred and inciting several specific criminal acts.

    Incidentally, he was booked under a standard pre-9/11 criminal offence. This would have come to trial in a pre-9/11 world too. (if you feel insanity on the strenght of his tortured childhood can be his best defence, organize a group of old classmate friends and get in touch with Vikram's US attorney to present that).

  21. Totally agree with Sanjay D.

    @Comic Project Democracy entails rights as well as duties. And no democracy ever can give right to a person to incite violence by calling for murder, rape etc.

    Thuough I don't agree with a person being denied job because he has posted something in a blog.

  22. I feel this sort of thing where recruiters look for what a person has posted in his blog will kind of bring some order into the blogosphere. People whether it is through blogs or other media need to be careful of what they say and should take care that what they say does not hurt anyone's sentiments.

  23. @vaibhav: Did I imply that democracy meant only rights? "Are scare tactics such as these permissible in a democracy? Freedom of speech should not be abused but the power to rule is abused much more openly."

    Rights and Responsibilities are both important, but we are in a society where rights and responsibilities applies only to man on the street..(ok in the AC cabin)...and not to those who rule :-) I was quite clear about the threat part - just not done - but there is a larger issue where some people will be used as poster boys for showing off the power of power..that i am very scared of. It has started with jobs and will spread to other areas. I am surprised why do-no-evil-google doesn't have an option "don't index me" or "protect my privacy" and why it is left to the individual to hide himself :-)))

  24. if what bloggerhere has posted is true, I am feeling guilty of posting my comment (blushes),

    but if what maverick has posted is true, then not really.

    Anyway, there are many intelligence matters that we would never know. We really dont know the truth. And the intelligence sleuths would not even bother to refute or confirm Subbaraos allegations or the posts like bloggerhere and maverick have posted.

  25. Hello,

    There is are two typos in my previous post,

    1) the line " so-called anti-nuclear groups like Manushi (Sudhindra and Sanghamitta Gadekar). " should read so-called anti-nuclear groups like Manushi and folks like Sudhindra and Sanghamitta Gadekar."

    Manushi is a newspaper published with a strong contributions from the Non-Communist Left (NCL) groups in India. These are leftist sounding groups that are traditionally pro-US. Some say these groups were created as part of a US govt. initiative to counter Russia's attempts to monopolize labour unions.

    Sudhindra and Sanghamitta Gadekar publish the journal Anumukti, which claims to attack the DAE's handling of health issues among tribals near its Uranium mines.

    2) the line "non-proliferation initiatives at places like NTI and NEPC. "

    should read "non-proliferation initiatives at places like NTI and NPEC."

    NTI stands for nuclear-threat initiative and NPEC stand for Non-Proliferation Education Center.

  26. in the shadows,

    spy cases are especially hard to prove in a court of law. Most evidence is obtained with a sense of urgency. The idea is to find out as much as you can without giving anything away, so the judiciary is kept out of the loop. Mistakes can happen, but then there are also cases where the conclusion is correct only the evidence won't hold up in court.

    The hardest part is proving cases where high level personalities are involved.

    I once again note the dichotomy between Capt. Subbarao's statement and his son's confession to the Secret Service. The father appears to be denying that his sone did anything at all - much less something wrong. Vikram appears to be saying that he did something - but nothing wrong. The dichotomy suggests that Capt. Subbarao is saying he can't believe his son would ever do such a thing. It appears to me that Capt. Subbarao is putting some distance between himself and his son. That is an extremely odd thing for him to be doing.

    During the detention of Capt. Subbarao, an attempt was made to make it look like it was DAE, specifically Dr. Raja Ramanna who was responsible for Capt. Subbarao's arrest. This is a plain white lie. The DAE may not have thought highly of Capt. Subbarao's antics, i.e. his continued interference in the DAE's area of responsiblity, but they did not have anything to do with Capt. Subbarao's arrest.

    An officer of Capt. Subbarao's rank and standing cannot be arrested by the Mumbai Police's Sahar Intelligence unit without the express sanction of the highest authority in the land. Capt. Subbarao said that he was going to the US to make a presentation for a CEAT-AT&T joint venture - something about software. Well why was he taking his Phd Thesis along. What does nuclear propulsion have to do with financial software? This is the part that has no convincing explanation.

  27. Maverick -- to a neutral reader (am not an anti-nuke pacifist or any such extreme ideologue) your logical comments reconfirm most of the originally quoted story that DAE/BARC had vendetta against Subbarao, his strong technological conviction (what's wrong with that, by the way?) and for rejecting their proposals. So the retribution came from the highest levels.

    It is a blot however certain parts of the judiciary, as you and others alluded to, handled his case along the executive's directions. If he was such a threat, the govt would have suspended his passport in advance, would have required him to get permission before travel (which most govt servants have to). Obviously, it was not about rational protection of secrets with prudent steps. He didn't try to sneak out like the latest RAW spy did through Nepal apparently on a foreign passport. It was individuals in power abusing the system to target a maverick scientist/military whistleblower. They did not present a reasonable chargesheet during the years he was dragged through courts without a solid case. This trend of trying someone with unfounded allegations (without so much as a complete chargesheet and a fair, speedy trial) is what is rotten about the Indian justice system -- against a spy or a common person. It naturally gets abused by the few in power. Most of us here are on the wrong side of that divide. We should recognize it so.

    If the freedom of speech argument can work for the defense anywhere it will in the US, a country with a strong, constitutionally protected, _almost_ unfettered right to free speech (even after recent dilution) unlike european or Indian constitutions. That is nonetheless relative, not absolute. Americans have more stomach for it in general than other countries. Nothing good or bad, just the way certain countries and societies evolve.

    By the way, why sully your otherwise rational arguments and a strong case with the pot shots at the credibility and motives of "anti-nuclear" groups?

  28. The "dichotomy" between Vikram's and his father's statements (I haven't seen either, except what is noted here) might be because a US lawyer would advise the freedom of speech argument which has a shot whereas under Indian laws, that Subbarao is apparently well versed in, it stands no chance. In general Indian prosecution isn't exactly known for solid, well researched evidence as Subbarao would have found it. In India, it is almost never about securing a conviction with a solid case. It is mostly the harassment of dragging the defendant through many "dates" and multiple levels of courts, arrests and bails. This is so much so, common people measure "justice done" based on how many bails were denied and how much appeals "hassles" the accused was put through.

    If one looks at Vikram's indictment pdf (aka chargesheet), it is surprisingly solid, even to an Internet techie like me, spelling out static IP addresses, MAC addresses, and even ARP tables to trace the comments to Vikram's computer and person!

  29. Maverick,

    There is nothing wrong in taking a Ph.D. thesis, today entire thesis on Nuclear reactor design and engineering can be downloaded using the click of a mouse. Ph.D. thesis and publications are generally public domain. Classified and sensitive information can never be permitted to be either published or form part of a thesis. One spends considerable time in a Ph.D. thesis and there is always the possibility of discussing even topics outside the scope of a conference in an international visit. It makes logical sense to take the theisis and per se that has nothing to do with "spying". This was also a period when we did not have internet and direct communications with the international scientific community was quite infrequent. It is clear that Captain Subbarao's and his family must have a very traumatic time, and the least we can do is sympathize.

    Vikram spent 10 years at Purdue University and despite his brilliance has not completed his Ph.D, although he was recognized by Purdue for his excellent teaching abilities. This delay in obtaining the Ph.D in itself suggests a disturbed mind, which is completely understandable. The Indo-US nuclear deal may have further infuriated Vikram. The unfortunate episode and posts, must be due to the huge stress all these generated within him. I can only say I feel very sorry for him and I hope as Rashmi said, he can come off this with dignity. It is an extremely unfortunate episode..

    Captain subbarao has taken a more acceptable stance in voicing his feelings on the US-India nuclear deal. see
    Indo-US Nuclear Deal- Some Unexplored Angles
    By Buddhi Kota Subbarao

    09 March, 2006

    The media build-up in favour of civilian nuclear technology 'transfer' and 'trade' between US and India is so systematic and clever, as to make the public in India see only benefits from it. When all aspects are considered there are more damages in store for India than benefits from it.

    India does not fall in the category of countries where nuclear power is a must to meet the growing energy needs. India is blessed with many rivers and has enormous hydro potential which is so far not exploited beyond thirty percent. It is the faulty Indian planning that makes the nuclear power look as a necessary component in meeting energy needs in India.

    All the spin in the media is aimed at making the Indo-US nuclear deal look like a golden opportunity to boost energy security of India without affecting the national security needs of the country. If the deal were to come in place really, and if the future nuclear power plants in India are based on the fuel supply from abroad, it is not only the Indian foreign policy that becomes vulnerable to interference, but even the energy security in the country can become precarious. When USA chose to ignore its agreement with India on Tarapur Atomic Power Plant and declined in the seventies to supply nuclear fuel to Tarapur, the Indian nuclear establishment having made tall claims that Tarapur will run on indigenously developed MOX fuel (Mixed Plutonium Oxide and Uranium Oxide), begged France to supply the fuel. France supplied fuel for ten years commencing in eighties. Thereafter India begged China and fuel was obtained for a few years from China. Now it is nuclear fuel from Russia that helps to keep the Tarapur plant going. It is nothing but being naïve to believe that there will be smooth flow of nuclear fuel from abroad to look after India's energy needs. Nuclear technology trade was, is and will be a trade with strings attached and unpredictable.

    Dr. Anil Kakodkar Chairman of Indian Atomic Energy Commission (AEC) & Secretary Department of Atomic Energy (DAE) publicly admitted in an interview to a national daily (Indian Express, Mumbai, Wednesday February 8, 2006), that Indian uranium resources can not support the projected nuclear power pursuit in the first stage of 3-stage plan side by side the strategic needs of India. It shows, the DAE has undertaken to build six more PHWRs (Pressurized Heavy Water Reactors) now under construction, 2 x 540 MWe at Tarapur (Maharashtra), 2 x 220 MWe at Rawatbhata (Rajasthan), 2 x 222 MWe at Kaiga (Karnataka) knowing fully well that the country is being pushed into dependency of nuclear fuel from abroad. The step to built 500 MWe Prototype Fast Breeder Reactor (FBR) at Kalpakam (Tamil Nadu) should have been timed after India is comfortable with the amount of plutonium needed for its minimum nuclear deterrence. The uranium resources of India will fall short if all the three components namely, the energy, the minimum deterrence and the nuclear submarine needs are considered. Having brought about a crisis with its reckless planning and mismanagement, the DAE worked hard to make Prime Minister Dr.Manmohan Singh to take stands with President Bush and before Indian Parliament, to hide the mismanagement in DAE. The biggest losers are Indians. How does it matter to President Bush or for that matter to any other head of a foreign state, if Indian Prime Minister is ready to go along his country's nuclear establishment which is reckless in its planning and clever in hiding its mismanagement?.

    In USA, business interests dictate foreign policy in almost all fields including the civilian nuclear technology. In India, foreign policy assiduously builds the image of Indian nuclear establishment. The latest proof of this fact is the ongoing debate before and after Indo-US joint agreement of July 18, 2005 between President George W Bush and Prime Minister Manmohan Singh in Washington, and the separation agreement on March 2, 2006 in New Delhi to separate civilian and military nuclear pursuits in India.

    The truth is, USA wants to make money by selling the disposable enriched uranium and weapon grade plutonium derived from the dismantling of some of their nuclear weapons, as nuclear fuel for power plants. Such is the case with Russia also. While supplying oil, the seller can at the most dictate its price and nothing more. But while supplying the nuclear fuel, the seller not only dictates its price but also can demand many more commitments from the buyers.

    Cost benefit analysis in Indian context does not show justification for building more nuclear power plants. They are expensive to run and build, and the decommissioning is also an expensive business. The present generation has no right to pile up for the future generations, the financial burden arising from decommissioning and the multiple dangers from the unsolved problem of nuclear waste disposal.

    It is false to say, nuclear power is clean and cheap. Nuclear reactors frequently release radioactive waste into the environment in the form of dust, mist, fumes, vapors/gases, and liquid waste (water). Krypton-89 with a half-life of 3.2 minutes decays into strontium-89, which has a 52-day half-life. Xenon-137, which has a 3.9-minute half-life, decays into cesium-137, which has a 30-year half-life. Xenon-135, which has a half-life of 9.17 hours decays into cesium-135 with a half-life of 3 million years. These radioactive elements when released into the environment, would ultimately enter into the food chain and cause drastic health problems due to the long lasting radioactivity which poses danger to all life forms on earth. One of the main effects on the environment that the heavy water reactors at Rawatbhata (Rajasthan), Madras (Tamil Nadu), Narora (UP), Kakrapara (Gujarat) and Kaiga (Karnataka) and Research Reactors CIRUS and DHRUVA at Bhabha Atomic Research Center(BARC), Trombay, Mumbai, have is that they release vast amounts of tritium (a radioactive isotope of hydrogen with a 12.3 year half life). Low doses of tritium have caused sterility, microcephaly, stunting.

    Indian context

    A proper account of India's natural resources and an honest cost-benefit analysis would show that for meeting the growing energy needs and to improve quality of life and health of its people, India should not commit any more of its money to nuclear power, but exploit fully its hydro potential and explore the uses of alternate sources of energy such as solar, wind, tidal wave and geothermal, while taking strict measures and improvements on energy losses . If India places its emphasis on hydro power and alternate sources of energy, the climate change argument to favour nuclear power becomes irrelevant so far as India is concerned. Nuclear power while it gives electricity, is sure to leave behind radiation dangers which would last for thousands of years.

    India is blessed with a large number of rivers and as such has enormous hydro potential which is exploited not even thirty percent. Hydropower is clean and cheap, which gives not only electricity, but also irrigation, drinking water, navigation, fishery and such other additional benefits. There are many rural areas in India where even after 58 years of India's independence, women have had to walk 10 kilometers with pots on their heads to fetch drinking water. Health of people improves if there is clean drinking water. Periodically India experiences flood and draught simultaneously with most of the rain water joining the sea. Indian planners failed so far, to appreciate fully the multiple benefits from hydro-power.

    On the eve of the 59th Independence Day, President Dr.Abdul J. Kalam in his speech to the nation on 14 th August 2005 focused on the highly technical theme of energy security and independence. Dr.Kalam pointed out that India has 17 per cent of the world's population and only 0.8 per cent of the world's known oil and natural gas resources. But surprisingly Dr.Kalam failed to mention the hydro-potential India has. However Dr. Kalam took pains to urge that there would have to be a ten-fold increase in nuclear power generation in order to achieve a reasonable degree of energy self-sufficiency. In the recent times Kalam's speeches show him to be the spoke's person of the Department of Atomic Energy. In 1998 on the Pokhran-II nuclear tests, as Head of Defence Research Development Organisation (DRDO), Dr.Kalam knowing fully well the hydrogen bomb test failed, did not find it necessary to inform the nation correctly. Dr.Kalam is an Honourable Man. It is unfortunate, even while having a scientist as President, there is no help to the nation to know the gap between the promise and performance in the scientific establishments especially in DAE and the wrong priorities of country's planners. DAE keeps the health of Tarapur Atomic Power Plant (TAPP) as secret. But it is known TAPP is one of the worst polluted atomic power plants in the world and its vintage designs have been long ago decommissioned in other parts of the world.

    Responsible To Whom?

    To break with nearly three decades of U.S. nonproliferation policy and to chart a course for the United States to pursue full-scale civil nuclear cooperation with India, US President Mr. George W. Bush in his Joint Statement with Prime Minister, Dr. Man Mohan Singh in Washington DC on July 18, 2005, put forth his appreciation that India is a "responsible state" with advanced nuclear technology. Whatever may be the meaning of the word 'responsible' gathered by President Bush, the people of India living in the largest democracy with longest written Constitution, are in no position to say that the Government of India and its Department of Atomic Energy(DAE) conduct themselves in a 'responsible' way towards the people of India in the matters of nuclear safety. Now the concern for safety has become more acute when DAE Chairman Dr.Kakodkar has cleverly projected that India specific safeguards alone will come in place. It means Indian nuclear establishment will continue to ignore the international practices in matters of nuclear safety. The then Chairman of Atomic Energy Regulatory Board (AERB) Dr.A.Gopalakrishnan in the year 1996 termed the nuclear regulation in India 'a farce'. DAE refuses to disclose to the public the details of the accidents even in the civilian nuclear technology field. Here are a few relevant facts:

    · On March 31, 1993 there was a serious accident at Narora Atomic Power Station (NAPS) in Uttar Pradesh. India was close to repeating Chernobyl, in a nuclear disaster that could have changed the very face of the subcontinent. Two enquiry reports were obtained one by the Committee setup by the Atomic Energy Regulatory (AERB) and the other by the Nuclear Power Corporation of India Limited (NPCIL). Neither of them has been made public. In a similar fire accident on March 22, 1975, at the Brown's Ferry Nuclear Plant near Decatur, Alabama, the US Nuclear Regulatory Commission published a detailed report on February 1976, marked it NUREG-0050, and made it available to the public at $5 from the National Technical Information Service, Springfield, Virginia.

    · To investigate the collapse of the containment dome of Unit-I of the Kaiga Atomic Power Plant under construction in Karnataka in 1994, with about 130 tonnes of concrete falling from a height of nearly 30 meters during construction, two investigating teams were commissioned, one by the AERB and the other by NPCIL. However, the findings of both Committees have been kept secret.

    · In 1992, it came to light that an illegal practice was admittedly going on at BARC for over 20 years. Senior BARC scientists were making money by using research reactor Apsara to irradiate natural diamonds, thereby making them dark in colour, as well as radioactive. These diamonds were then released into the market, both domestic and foreign, passing them off as rare black diamonds which are more costly. According to the London-based Diamond Trading Corporation (DTC), these diamonds had a dangerously high level of radioactivity. The DTC warned the government of India through a letter in mid-1992 not to allow its nuclear facilities to be used to irradiate diamonds. It is difficult to know how many people all over the world are wearing jewellery studded with the irradiated black diamonds, and have unknowingly become victims of cancer and leukaemia. This criminal act was not allowed to come under police or CBI investigation. In June 2005, the social organization named "Citizens For A Just Society", founded by noted Gandhian and Freedom Fighter Dr.Usha Mehta, has submitted a Memorandum to Dr. M. Elbaradei, Director General, International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) urging IAEA to cause the Government of India to investigate into the illegal irradiation of diamonds at BARC and to take necessary punitive action against concerned scientists of BARC and DAE. Simultaneously the social organization also submitted formal letters to President Dr.A.P.J.Abdul Kalam and Prime Minister Dr.Manmohan Singh to bring offenders of law to justice. But all of it, is of to no avail so far.

    · Fraud was committed on Bombay High Court in January 1997 by the DAE. Through a Memorandum, purportedly made under the purported instructions of the then Prime Minister Shri.Deve Gouda, submitted to the High Court in January 1997 as well as with an undertaking given in the open Court, the High Court was made to believe that the high power committee constituted as per the Memorandum with Dr.Raja Ramanna as chairman of the committee and Dr.Abul Kalam, Mr.Anil Kakodkar and others as members, would submit a report in four months on the matter of reorganization of AERB (Atomic Energy Regulatory Board) and on the 90 nuclear safety violations in our nuclear power plants, out of the total 130 nuclear safety violations in all our nuclear establishments compiled by the then chairman of AERB Dr.A.Gopalakrishnan in 1996. Believing thus, the High Court did not admit the public interest petition filed by People's Union For Civil Liberties(PUCL), but the Court was kind enough to keep the doors open if an occasion demands and also recorded that information on the safety violations can not be denied to the public for all times. It is not made public if the said Committee submitted its report in four months (January to April 1997) as promised to the High Court. The information is, the Committee never met, let alone rendering its report in four months. Big names in the field are thrown at the High Court to deflect the imminent judicial examination into the mismanagement and criminal acts of DAE.

    Indo-US civilian nuclear collaboration may ultimately lead to promoting US business interests and the inevitable media spin would make it much more difficult for the people of India to guard themselves against nuclear safety violations. There is nothing the President of US can do to help on this point. The people of India have to help themselves against nuclear radiation dangers. Indian specific safeguards should not mean denying the people of India the international practices in matters of nuclear safety.

    The writer is former Indian Navy Captain with Ph.D in nuclear technology from IIT Bombay.


  30. leftist crap, that was.

  31. Oh man, I didn't know trolling on the internet could get you into trouble like that..

    Better watch what I say..

  32. Well this was one nice post and made for an interesting read though the story of your childhood friend ( or should I say classmate) was sad.
    So you always came first in your class... That, as far as I am concerned, isnt always a plus...:)..
    As for google its strange how it throws up things that you dont want and when you get out there looking for something you might spend hours and not find what you are looking for. One word for it...weird...but true.

  33. How have you already made up your mind that Vikram did indeed leave those comments on the website and that it wasn't a prank being played on him by someone else?

  34. Awesome!! If it wasn't for this dude, I'd never have stumbled across this blog!!I mean, I am terribly sorry for the guy, when I saw the story first thing I did was checked the guys name to make sure it isn't one of my math wiz buddies.

    Anyways, nice to make your aquaintance.

  35. leftist crap? I thought Subbarao has a Ph.D in nuclear technology from IIT Bombay.

  36. You say you had known this person to be a mathematics wizard, and are all praise for his intelligence. Do you really think he would be so foolish enough to do something like this? How difficult is it to hack into someone's account and post stuff?

  37. Does that mean it's not leftist crap?

  38. Dr. Subbarao has made a surprisingly rational case, bereft of loaded bitterness one would expect from a wronged whistleblower "gone crazy". Promoting hydel power (NBA?) and still flaunting his nuclear science badge hardly qualifies as leftist even in the US, let alone in much-more-to-the-left India.

    He has made a pretty solid rational analysis of India's self interests -- you may differ with some or all of the conclusions -- if anything, a hallmark of rightist conservatism, along the way exposing the meagre role nuclear power plays now or in the next few decades for India's energy needs (even supported by numbers given by "mainstream" nuclear advocates in India!).

    The criticism of his position is bereft of India's self interest analysis, what one would expect from an intelligent "rightist" worth his/her salt, making it "rightist crap" -- jingoism of the two digit IQ crowd.

    However, I do criticize Dr. Subbarao -- this would hurt him a lot more than his positions on nuclear power -- for not working hard enough to keep his son from becoming a frustrated cynic!! I've read the criminal complaint and Vikram's lawyers implicit admission he wrote those things. His only prayer is a first amendment defence. Only ajudge can make that too close a call.

  39. Hi Sanjay D,

    Strong convictions based on what? and absence of facts?

    At the time that Capt. Subbarao made these convictions known to his peers, the Indian Navy (IN) had been operating subs for about a decade. There were no submarine building facilities in India and outside DAE no one has the experience of actually working with a nuclear reactor. Dr. Subbarao's theoretical knowledge of reactor design did not make him an expert on building a real reactors. Dr. Subbarao seemed to think his PhD in the principles of reactor design was equal to atleast 10 DAE phDs, never mind the fact that the DAE guys got their PhD by actually building reactors in India.

    The Navy had no idea what it took to build a nuclear reactor in India. They had no experience with material sciences and metallurgy that went into designing reactors. The Navy had no clue as to how to actually build a submarine, the only thing they had built in India that could function underwater was built with BARC's help.

    The Navy supported Capt. Subbarao because most people in the Navy had no idea what a submarine was... much less what a nuclear submarine is actually used for. Most of the IN's people were seduced by the Soviet design they had been given marginal access to. That thing was fueled with enriched uranium. Where were we to get that from in the 80s? *ALL* our reactors are based on natural uranium. We did not have the ability to make enriched uranium. The case that several voices in the Navy have been consistently putting forth is the purchase of a sealed submarine reactor from Russians. But do these people understand what will happen if the nuclear deterrent is based on imported technology? This stands the logic of an indigenous deterrent on its head.

    That is what the DAE was trying to protect. Dr. Subbarao was simply a symbol of the Navy's ignorance. Removing him from the picture would simply remove an icon of this problem *not* the problem itself. The DAE had little to gain from the expulsion of Dr. Subbarao, that is some figment of his imagination.


    I think you are misinformed about what can be downloaded from the internet. I have seen a dozen theses which have classified content. They are simply not deposited in a publicly accessible place. BARC itself has such an arrangement in place.

    There was no internet in 1980s when Dr. Subbarao was arrested.

    However Dr. Subbarao knew way too much about the project to leave the country. It appears they suspected that he was up to no good and arrested him to be sure. That is unfortunately the way it works, he should count himself lucky, a number of people suspected of similar offenses simply end up in a shallow ditch somewhere.

    Dr. Subbarao was going to make a presentation to AT&T on behalf of CEAT. There was no conference he was going to. There was no need to take that thesis along.

    Think about it, a high ranking naval officer involved in the nuclear submarine project retires and gets a visa to the US? Do you know how many retired LCA project officials were denied a visa in 2005? What are the chances of some of this kind being approved for a visa in 1980 something? when Indo US relations weren't at the best? and he plans to go do "discussions" at a "conference" about his thesis? I don't know about you, but that sounds really bad to me.

    Read the article you have enclosed carefully. Dr. Subbarao still harbours a grudge against DAE for what happened to him. He is not in favor of the nuclear deal or in favor of President Bush's pro-big business policies. This article is yet another case of Dr. Subbarao using his credentials to talk about things he has no clue of.

    With regards Vikram Buddhi - he is displaying a shocking lack of understanding here. He is not a citizen - he has no rights - post Patriot Act, he cannot demand first ammendment (or any other) rights. Any rights that are extended to him are a courtesy not a privilege. He may appeal that his actions are not sufficient to deny him his rights, but that is about all he can do. I do not see any jury coming down in his favor.
    This gives the Americans incredible leverage with Capt. Subbarao though which I am sure has come to the attention of people in Delhi.


  40. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

  41. Maverick -- Subbarao or the people in DAE have a lot more credentials what they are talking about than you or me.

    You seem to have a special knowledge of BARC and even vouching for Ramanna... perhaps grinding their axe here.. what is more odd is you're busting the navy's chops to get at Subbarao like an insider in the internecine partisan politics.

    Without any allegiatnace to either department, I'd say neither had much clue about reactors or submarines back in the 60s and 70s, when Indians more or less mooched most of their "indigenous technology" off CIRRUS and other places. Everyone knows how safe or sophisticated those reactors have been.

    Vikram isn't charged under the patriot act. He is getting a trial just as a US citizen would get -- you'll be lucky to be shown a full chargesheet within a reasonable time if you ever were arrested on false charges in India (after your DAE/BARC patrons are retired :)) and certainly his father wasn't so lucky in the jungle raj you condone "he should consider himself lucky". Corrupt Indian politicians love having the "scientist" types of your mold to continue their jungle raj. Indian govt was free to cancel his passport legally or if his PhD thesis was classified why wasn't he convicted in the court and jailed? I'm against this charade of pre-trial harassment in case it wasn't spelt out clealry.

    If Subbarao was/is a US mole or susceptible to US leverage on him, he wouldn't go out of his way to blast the nuclear accord so dear to the US govt, now would he? He also wouldn't steep his own son in anti-US vitriol either!

    Happy trails!

  42. Maverick,

    Of course, I have never been an examiner of thesis and do not know how things operate in the academic world. Commonsense tells me that a thesis has to be displayed in University library and it makes sense that it must not have confidential information, if the tragedy of what happened with Subbarao is not to be repeated. The very process of getting a Ph.D. degree involves a committe, a board of examiners etc. implying that it is not truly treated as a "confidential document".

    Throwing in a prison is actually quite equivalent to being found in the ditch, especially as such a complex case may have few precedents! Sanjay D, Subbarao's son grew into a cynic, and I sure that is costing that family a lot. What can a father do from jail? It is a sensational complex tragedy.
    shayaad bewakoof rehana hein thik tha, jyada buddhi bhi bahut problem de sakthi hain.

  43. Maverick, Sanjay D, Phony, I

    Thanks for the interesting comments. I cannot claim to be the expert, some of you seem to be. I do agree with Maverick, that any foreigner in USA, would not have the rights, the citizens would have. Its probably going to be a hard battle for Vikram and Subbarao to get out of this mess, unless they can prove that his account was hacked. We must thank Rashmi for starting this interesting discussion and I now move out of the pavilion.

  44. Hello Sanjay D,

    This isn't about taking sides - this is about using common sense.

    Even today the DAE knows more about building reactors in India than the Navy knows about building submarines in India. Even today the DAE's experience with operating reactors far exceeds the Navy's experience with operating submarines.

    Back when Capt. Subbarao went around badmouthing DAE in the PMO, the Navy had no idea how to design a submarine. Most of their tactical commanders had no idea how to utilize submarines in a war environment. They had a small cadre of submarine personnel that did the best they could under the circumstances, but that was all.

    The Navy were keen to copy elements of a soviet design and that idea has kept popping up in all the writings about this issue - all this stuff about the "sealed submarine reactor from Russia", all this "exploiting a loophole in the NPT" talk their mouthpieces keep putting out. A nuclear deterrent cannot be based on imported components - certainly not at the propulsion level.

    The DAE may not have been capable of building the reactor right away but atleast they understood the fundamentals of deterrence. The Navy appears to have missed that point. It was only when such misunderstandings were cleared up did the project proceed. The Navy's support for Dr. Subbarao was misplaced.

    People in India who read Dr. Subbarao's story tend to identify with the mistreatment that he endured, perhaps even feel that they have experienced similar things from the Indian bureaucracy. The difference that most people miss is that Dr. Subbarao wasn't some ordinary person being jerked around in the local RTO, he was a high-ranking military officer suspected of espionage.

    The suspicion of espionage is sufficient to end a career. I still think Dr. Subbarao was lucky. A number of police officers who went over in Punjab and Kashmir weren't so lucky.

    To convict him would require exposure of the ATV project, something the government is not keen to do for reasons one can only speculate.

    The PHWR is the *MOST* safe reactor design. The Indian PHWRs (INDU) are the safest PHWRs. The only people who disagree with this are the anti-nuclear guys who have happily reproduced all the lies that the so called Non-proliferation think tanks put up about DAE's safety record. Subbarao given his grudge with the DAE seems to gel well with that crowd.

    In terms of "sophistication", the PHWR is about as "sophisticated" as any of the other things out there. Indian PHWRs are a tad bit more sophisticated than their Canadian counterparts because of certain India specific design issues. The thing that makes the PHWR attractive to most people is the relative simplicity of its operation and the ease of obtaining fuel.

    Dr. Subbarao now has the unenviable position of watching the Americans (who he was suspected of working for) join hands with the DAE, an organization he doesn't really like at all. The reaction may simply be visceral.


    The thesis is not simply a peice of paper, it can easily contain several conclusions that may be left out deliberately or even deemphasized in the text.

    Scientific classification systems are different from other systems used in government. The formal term "classified" is rarely used, it is more a question of how exactly the thesis is written and how many people are given access to it. The correct word may be "compartmented access".

    The thesis committee and reader is selected in such a way that it comprises people with the right level of clearance. The thesis can be deposited as a line entry in the university library's catalog and then the document itself is actually stored in another location available to a reader only if he or she has the right clearance level. There are ways to do this and it is done.

  45. Hi Maverick,

    I did a Google search on classified information and thesis. See the Univ. of Colorado site. It states , ***The work produced on classified research projects cannot be used either in faculty personnel decision or in student theses/dissertations until the work can be published in the open literature.*** I have added ** to highlights such lines.

    Subbarao had his own thesis while leaving the country, assuming even that it had classified information; was that in itself sufficient ground to warrant an arrest? Maybe Subbarao was planning to go over a portion of his own chapter and revise his understanding during his stay in the US. That is possible for these lost in their own world crowd, isn't it?
    Classified Research Policy Statement as Adopted by the Board of Regents and Administrative Guideline for Implementation

    Source: President's Office
    Prepared by: Associate Vice President for Research
    Approved by: E. Gordon Gee
    Application: All campuses
    Effective Date: 11/1/87
    Replaces: 2/1/87

    A. Definition of Classified Research

    The University policy defines classified research as follows:

    1. "Research that has a security classification established by a federal agency."*
    Various agencies of the federal government designate as Top Secret, Secret, or Confidential some federally sponsored research project; either all or a portion of a particular project may be so designated. Under the terms of the University policy, research projects so designated are considered classified.
    2. "Industrially sponsored proprietary research for which the sponsor requires a delay in publication in excess of six months."
    University research projects for which the sponsor requires a delay in publication of the results in the open literature in excess of six months from the date of submission of the final project report to the sponsor are considered classified. If publication of the results in the open literature is to be delayed six months or less from the date of submission of the final project report, the project is not considered classified.

    * Quotations in this statement are from the Board of Regents Policy Statement (see Attachment A).

    B. Exclusions

    The policy excludes the following:

    1. "Routine Testing Services"
    Faculty members may continue to undertake activities requiring University expertise and University health care facilities for technical measurement, analysis, observation, or evaluation in a controlled clinical setting. Testing services such as these that do not lead to publishable information are excluded from the classified research policy.
    2. "Personal Consulting by Faculty Member"
    Faculty members may be perform personal consulting under the existing rules and regulations of the University; such consulting may include work on classified projects. The normal campus approval procedures for faculty consulting will be followed even if some or all of the work is classified. Personal consulting conducted in non-University facilities is excluded from the classified research policy. Personal consulting conducted in University facilities is included in the policy and, therefore, requires approval of the President.

    C. Patent Policies

    The interests of the Principal Investigator and of the University in patentable discoveries that are made in all research (including that considered classified) shall be protected by the uniform patent policies established by the Board of Regents.

    D. Human and Animal Studies

    Federal law and guidelines mandate that the usual committee reviews for Human and Animal studies, when included in classified research, will not be modified in any way from those required for unclassified research.

    E. Utilization of Classified Research in Faculty Personnel Decisions and Student Theses/Dissertations

    1. The University will continue to base decisions concerning faculty personnel matters on contributions to teaching, research, and service. ****Classified research results which may not be published in the open literature will not be considered in faculty personnel decisions until and unless the research results are released for publication****.
    2. Students must be free to pursue knowledge in an open environment. Consequently, formal academic work by students (coursework, theses, dissertations, etc.) shall not include classified research.

    F. Use of University Facilities

    The University will strive to maintain campus environments fully open to the University community. Classified research projects will, therefore, be conducted at off-campus locations unless the Chancellor verifies the absolute necessity of on-campus University facilities for the proposed classified project. If this is the case, the Chancellor's statement will be submitted to the President with the petition (refer to Section H below).

    G. Security Costs

    All classified research projects will finance the unique security costs that are required with sponsor funds. The University may continue to provide facilities to store classified documents.

    H. Procedures

    1. Approval of individual classified research projects by the University President is required. Presidential approval should normally be obtained prior to the submission of a formal proposal to the potential sponsor. In all cases, however, Presidential approval is required before acceptance of the award by the University.
    2. Faculty members and/or academic units planning to engage in classified research will petition the President for approval of their planned project. Prior to submission to the President, the petition will be reviewed and approved on the campus utilizing a campus process defined by the Chancellor.
    3. Upon receipt by the President's Office, the petition will be referred to the Faculty Committee on Classified Research (refer to Section I) for review and recommendation. Following the Committee's review and the President's decision, the petitioner and the Chancellor will be notified; the President's decision will then be made public. Normally, this process will be completed within four weeks of the receipt of the petition in the President's Office.
    4. The petition will be an open document and contain the information listed in Attachment B.
    5. Projects receiving continuation funds do not require further review and Presidential action unless there is a change in the scope of the required security arrangements.

    I. Faculty Committee on Classified Research

    1. The committee will be composed of three faculty members from each of the University's four campuses. They will be appointed by the University President for three year, staggered terms. The committee will elect the Chairperson from the committee to serve renewable one-year terms. The Associate Vice President for Research will be an ex-officio, non-voting member of the committee and will serve as its Executive Secretary.
    2. The committee will utilize the procedures and criteria listed in Attachment B.
    3. The committee will conduct its deliberations and handle all material with strict confidentiality, rigorously observing national security laws and protecting proprietary information. The chair will report the committee's findings to the President for decision.

    Attachment A


    RESOLVED that the Board of Regents of the University of Colorado hereby approves the following policy on classified research.

    Policy on Classified Research
    at the University of Colorado

    The University of Colorado is honored to have been selected for research of every conceivable kind over many generations. The products of this inquiry by our distinguished faculty and their students have advanced the reputation of our University and the quality of our civilization.

    We thank those in industry and government and those private individuals who have made this possible and continue to do so. We welcome future research activity, an inseparable element of our responsibility to serve the people of Colorado, the United States, and the world at large.

    In the case of classified research, there are potential impacts on the University that need special consideration. Therefore, the University of Colorado will undertake, conduct, or manage those classified research projects which receive the specific approval of the president. For the purpose of this policy, classified research is defined as (1) research that has a security classification established by a federal agency and (2) industrially sponsored proprietary research for which the sponsor requires a delay in publication in excess of six months. A faculty advisory committee will advise the president on individual cases. Actions taken by the president shall be public information. Classified research projects approved by the president will be conducted at off-campus locations whenever possible. ***The work produced on classified research projects cannot be used either in faculty personnel decision or in student theses/dissertations until the work can be published in the open literature.*** All classified research projects will fully finance any security costs required by the projects out of the sponsor-funded direct or indirect costs.

    Not included in this policy are routine testing services provided to industry by the University whose results are not publishable. Faculty members shall not perform classified research in University of Colorado facilities under the one-sixth rule (personal consulting) without specific approval of the University president, as provided in this policy.

    FURTHER RESOLVED that an annual report to the Regents shall be provided at each September meeting concerning classified research, which shall include its general nature, funding, campus locations, number of square feet of space used, FTE employed, and extent of security arrangements.
    Attachment B

    October 12, 1987

    Petitions forwarded to the President for the conduct of classified research will be referred to the Faculty Committee on Classified Research (FCCR) for review and recommendation to the President. Each petition will have a Cover Sheet containing the following information:

    Project Title
    Names of Principal Investigator and Co-Investigators
    Address and Phone Number(s) of Principal Investigator
    The Granting Agency
    Proposed Funding Level
    Time period of the research
    The CU location of the research
    Time deadlines (if any) for proposal submission

    The recommendations of the FCCR will be based on its judgment of the appropriateness of the proposed research at the University and its evaluation of the following factors, which should be addressed explicitly in the petition in the order shown:

    1. An unclassified summary of the proposed research expressed in non technical terms and suitable for public dissemination.
    2. The intellectual content of the proposed research; i.e., the extent to which it may lead to significant new knowledge in Science, Engineering, or other fields.
    3. The relationships between the proposed research and the openness of the academic environment, i.e.
    1. The extent and duration of special security arrangements.
    2. The extent to which portions of the campus will have restricted access.
    3. The extent to which students and faculty involved in the research will be allowed to discuss their results with students and faculty not involved in the research.
    4. The restrictions that will be applied to publication of results.
    4. The effect of the proposed research on the resources of the University (funds, equipment, personnel, space, etc.) i.e.,
    1. The extent to which the research project will contribute new resources that can be applied to non-classified work.
    2. The extent to which the research project will require the dedication of resources that would otherwise be available for non-classified work.
    5. The extent to which students will be involved in the proposed research.
    6. The proposed time duration of the classified portion of the project.

    All petitions will be reviewed and approved on the local campus prior to review by the FCCR, utilizing a campus process defined by the Chancellor. The Faculty Committee requests explicit approval by the Department Chair in addition to any others specified by the Chancellor.


  46. phony -- you're right on about theses. applaud you for standing up for the grave injustice to subbarao. worth noting he was put in the jail "UNDER TRIAL", never convicted so all talk of legality to carry a thesis abroad is moot. The bottom line, judges freed him _because it WAS legal to carry it_. they hassled him because they had nothing on him. that is what ordinary indians ought to worry about most! they came for him, they could come for you with trumped up charges (it is never about whether you committed the alleged crime in India.. or getting a fair trial).

    anthonygonsalves - i don't really know any more than you do (thanks for the undeserved "expert" compliment). you need not surmise "any foreigner would", you just look at the criminal complaint, pdf link in these comments, and follow a full fair trial whether the same laws that apply to US citizen were invoked or any special laws for foreigners. and reach your conclusion. it would be sad if the conclusion is indians get a _fair_ trial in the US than in their own country, NO? the jury is out.

    maverick -- we approch common sense from diametrically opposite ends. belief in the divine right of the ruling vs the innocence of ordinary people until proven guilty under a fair trial.


  47. PHWR: Cirrus came from Canada and its money, used USAID money to buy heavy water to enrich plutonium that was used in Pokhran. No indigenous technology here. In fact, cheating the donors (they didn't give the reactor or money to enrich) and not even owning up to it. Let's get over our school books doctrination.

    Safety: shared core of cirrus and dhruva and 1991 ring a bell? I visited a friend in BARC in 1992 and got some details.

  48. Sanjay D, you simply don't know what you are talking about. Please look up the terms PNE and what was allowed using Cirus and its components/constituents/fuel. You may be surprised to know who exactly was cheated.

    And what's this about enriching plutonium? Please explain so that lesser mortals like me can also know how heavy water is used to enrich plutonium.

    I agree with maverick - the good captain should consider himself lucky that he is not in prison any more or worse. Trying to take his PhD thesis outside the country, when said thesis contains sensitive matter, at best displays a shocking lack of judgement on his part. For people holding sensitive posts and being privy to sensitive information, the rules are very strict indeed and were far stricter in the 80s (how does notifying the authorities when you meet a foreigner sound to you especially when the foreigner is a blood relative?). People knowing the rules should play by it. The rules may sound draconian and unfair but they are there nevertheless.

  49. Thanks, Sanjay D! Scrapstuff, I
    could not understand anything from your post. I recommend your reading the following article.

    Frontline Column: Beyond the Obvious

    Praful Bidwai

    Lessons from the ‘Kursk’ catastrophe

    The submarine disaster underscores both appalling lack of safety in Russia’s military, and generic problems with nuclear submarines everywhere. To avert disaster, India must abandon its nuclear weapons and submarine development programmes altogether.
    The world public will find it hard to overcome the sheer horror of the last moments of the 118 men who died gasping and choking inside the Kursk submarine. If death could ever be totally cruel and merciless, undignified and sordid, wanton and preventable, then this was that death. And yet, the accident was in some ways only waiting to happen—in line with the 120-plus “incidents” involving Soviet/Russian submarines since 1956. The Kursk disaster holds many lessons for the world, in particular for India.

    To start with, the catastrophe is far from over. Indeed, the radiation danger may only be beginning to unfold. According to the Bellona Foundation, a highly regarded Norwegian environmental group which has for years monitored Russian submarines, the Kursk is powered by two OK-650b reactors with an output of 380 MW. Their cores contain an estimated 1,200 kg of highly enriched uranium, most of it U-235. This has a half-life of a mind-boggling 710 million years. This means that even with radioactive decay, 600 kg of the material will still be present 710 million years from now, and nearly 500 kg one billion years later! The inventory of radioactivity is likely to be 2.2 million terrabecquerels—an awesome magnitude.

    Even the short-run environmental hazard is grave: the reactors probably shut down without adequate cooling (due to lack of power) and retain significant amounts of heat. It is also likely that they were damaged in the explosions that sank the Kursk. To haul the submarine to the surface or otherwise remove the reactors from its twin hulls will necessarily entail huge radioactive exposure of personnel. The enormous difficulty is underscored by comparison with the far, far simpler task of getting divers to break down the hatches—itself a complex operation which demanded the forging of special tools.

    Abandoning the submarine where it lies would be even more dangerous. Its body will decay, releasing huge amounts of potent toxins, contaminating marine life and eventually endangering human beings. Nuclear-powered submarines contain a cocktail of poisons: highly enriched (usually 90 percent-plus) uranium, hundreds of radioisotopes and fission products, including plutonium, and high chemical explosives to boot. Nuclear submarine operators follow patently unsafe practices which would be totally impermissible in civilian facilities: e.g. storage of high explosives next to a nuclear reactor.

    The Kursk is only one of 125 Russian submarines which are still to be dismantled. (About 180 have been taken out of service since the end of the Cold War). Two-thirds of these are in the north of Russia. In fact, Russia’s Northern Fleet operates a fifth of the world’s nuclear reactors—in an unsafe and increasingly sloppy fashion. It also stores some 21,000 nuclear fuel-assemblies and has a unique inventory of hazardous materials. Any day, any month, one or more of the 200-plus nuclear reactors in this unsafe, poorly guarded fleet was liable to experience a catastrophic accident. That has now happened. It can happen again—so long as the subs exist.

    Since 1994, Alexander Nikitin, then a 44-year former submarine captain, has been doing some whistle-blowing, documenting the Northern Fleet’s poor operational and maintenance practices and warning of disaster. For this, Nikitin was arrested in February 1995 by the security police and accused of grave charges, including espionage, which carry a death sentence, although he had obtained all his information from open sources. Nikitin spent nine months in jail before trial. He was prevented even from choosing his lawyer. Recently, however, he was totally acquitted of all charges.

    I interviewed Nikitin two months ago in Stockholm. All his fears expressed since 1995—when I started following his case—have come true. Nikitin, at one level, was glad to be exonerated of the trumped-up charges. But at another, he was full of apprehension that under further, massive, budget cuts, the Russian forces’ safety standards would fall precipitously. Today, Russia’s military runs on a budget $5 billion (compared to the US’ $300 billion). [This is even lower than India’s current $13 billion-plus defence budget.] More than 70 percent of Russian warships are in a state of disrepair. Most soldiers earn less than $100 a month. Some don’t get paid at all.

    “Vast numbers of soldiers and sailors moonlight,” Nikitin said. “This means they pay little attention to their job. Their skills and qualifications have eroded. The armed forces are in a state of turmoil, a quarter of them homeless, and most acutely demoralised and depressed.” Two years ago, a young sailor went berserk on a submarine and held eight of his colleagues hostage at gunpoint. Some of the generals who prosecuted the Chechnya war would routinely get drunk by 9 a.m. These men are sitting on the world’s biggest nuclear arsenal, with 22,000 deployed weapons.

    Even before the USSR’s collapse in 1991, there were 121 accidents and “incidents” on board the country’s nuclear submarines. According to “Greenpeace”, at least 10 involved serious damage to nuclear reactors. Meltdowns—the worst possible reactor accident—occurred in 1979 and 1989. Since 1991, under economic near-collapse, safety conditions have probably further worsened.

    However, Russia’s specific submarine troubles should not obscure the generic problem with nuclear submarines all over the world, which have recorded serious accidents. Apart from the hazards of all nuclear technology, the primary reason for this is that submarine reactors pack a large amount of energy in a tiny volume (just as a nuclear weapon does). Their designs evolved in a breakneck arms race in which safety hardly counted. Today, the wrecks of American, British and Russian nuclear subs lie scattered on the earth’s ocean floor—at least five of them for more than a decade. These include the

    • USS Thresher, which sank off the northeast coast in 1963, with 129 men. It now lies at a depth of 2,600 metres.

    • USS Scorpion, which sank off the Azores in 1968, with 99 men. It lies 3,006 metres deep.

    • Soviet November-class submarine, which sank in the Bay of Biscay in 1970. It lies 4,680 metres deep.

    • A Soviet submarine caught fire and sank east of Bermuda, killing three sailors in 1986. A top Russian nuclear scientist later said its nuclear warheads broke open, spewing plutonium into the Atlantic. It sits 5,000 metres deep.

    • Soviet sub, the Komsomolets, caught fire and sank off Norway in 1989, killing 42 sailors. It lies 1,371 metres deep.

    There is, of course, a sordid quality to the way the Russian authorities handled the Kursk crisis. First, they denied the accident posed serious danger. For fully four days, they refused all external help, boastfully claiming Russian resources were sufficient to handle the job. When the help did come on August 19, they announced that the rear hatch of the vessel was irreparably damaged, when in fact it was not. President Vladimir Putin refused to cut short his Black Sea holiday—until it was too late. The British and the Norwegians too delayed sending in assistance or reached Murmansk via a detour.

    True to type, the Russian nucleocracy, like all nucleocrats everywhere, refused to disclose relevant information, including the names of the sailors (their number too was raised without explanation from 116 to 118), the sub’s location, and the causes of the accident. According to independent sources monitoring the Kursk, there were two internal explosions, and not an external “collision” as the Russians claimed. Official estimates of how long the oxygen could last were contradictory. The authorities’ treatment of the victims’ relatives was appalling. Putin’s conduct in particular cost him a lot in reputation.

    This pattern of behaviour too is typical of nuclear establishments everywhere, marked as they are by paranoid and excessive secrecy, and dominated by “experts” who feel free to play God with people’s lives and cynically exploit their privileged access to information, being answerable to nobody. In India, we have our own obnoxious Atomic Energy Act of 1962 which allows the Department of Atomic Energy (DAE) to withhold any information it likes. (Eminent jurists like V.R. Krishna Iyer term this unconstitutional and undemocratic).

    In India, we also have a virtually exact analogue of Nikitin: Capt Buddhi Kota Subba Rao, a long-standing critic of the so-called Advance Technology Vessel (ATV) or nuclear submarine project. For questioning the DAE’s bungling and blundering scientists and their faulty design assumptions, he too was charged with espionage and jailed for years—until he was honourably acquitted by the Bombay High Court.

    India’s nuclear and defence establishments work at sub-Russian levels of safety. For instance, of the world’s 10 worst performing nuclear reactors, six are in India. The Tarapur power station is, going by International Atomic Energy Agency records, the world’s most contaminated, with the highest radiation exposure for every unit of power. The record of the Defence Research and Development Organisation is extremely poor too. Its three biggest projects—the ATV, main battle tank and light combat aircraft—are all bad performers, if not embarrassing failures.

    The armed services are no better. Between April 1991 and March 1997, the Indian Air Force (IAF) witnessed 187 accidents and 2,729 “incidents”, in which 147 aircraft were destroyed and 63 pilots killed. In financial terms, this loss exceeds over Rs. 4,000 crores—roughly four-fifths of the IAF’s annual budget. Since then, until this month, the IAF has lost another 22 pilots and 55 aircraft, taking the total in under 10 years to 202 planes. In the last six months alone, there were 14 aircraft crashes. Over forty percent of IAF accidents are caused by defects primarily attributable to substandard spares. The army too has had its share of catastrophic ordnance explosions, defective equipment and plain duds. The ATV project has soaked up Rs 2,000 crores without producing a power plant. (For details and for a discussion of our “Ramshackle Deterrence,” see Praful Bidwai & Achin Vanaik’s South Asia on a Short Fuse: Nuclear Politics and the Future of Global Disarmament, Oxford University Press, New Delhi, 1999).

    Some of these problems are rooted in India’s poor safety culture. India is a disaster-prone society, marked by high rates of accidents and mishaps, sloppy precautionary design and disaster forecasting, and appalling emergency and relief-provision procedures. India is among the world’s largest recipients of toxic waste and unsafe technologies. Our frequency of industrial accidents is four times higher than in the US. Road accident fatalities (relative to number of vehicles) are ten times higher than in the OECD countries. The point about a generally poor safety culture is simple. If Indian engineers can’t control the frequency of mishaps in relatively uncomplicated and loosely “coupled” systems such as road traffic, then they can’t be trusted to safely handle highly complex, “tightly coupled” systems such as nuclear weapons or submarines. Nuclear deterrence is a flawed security doctrine everywhere. In South Asia, it is simply unworkable.

    The conclusion is stark. The chances of a disastrous accident in India’s nuclear infrastructure are unacceptably high, as is the probability of accidental or unauthorised use of nuclear weapons. The story in Pakistan is even worse. This makes South Asia a uniquely dangerous place.

    Nuclear weapons are unconscionably destructive not just in their use, but even in the process of manufacture, handling, storage, transportation and deployment. The environmental clean-up for the US nuclear weapons programme alone is officially estimated to cost $254 billion—the same order of magnitude as India’s annual GDP! Each stage in the nuclear fuel cycle, and each component of the weapons programme, poses grave hazards. This universal argument applies a fortiori to South Asia.

    Therefore, it would be suicidal for India to go further down the nuclear trajectory. We must abandon the ATV submarine project and totally freeze nuclear weapons development. There must be no manufacture, induction or deployment of nuclear weapons.

  50. Hi Phony,

    Every place has different procedures. I cannot comment on what is in place in India. Any government officer working on sensitive data knows that you have to be careful or risk raising suspicions.

    Dr. Subbarao should have known what every officer in the government knows about handling sensitive data. At his level you can't say "oops.." the penalties are too high.

    Everyone seems keen to think that the DAE had ego problems and was desperate to stop Dr. Subbarao's appointment. No one admits to the possibility that Dr. Subbarao has atleast as much of an ego problem as the DAE and it is plausible that the fact that he was denied a position as the head of the submarine project could have sent him flying into the arms of the Americans.

    All this tripe from Bidwai is not worth commenting on. If I was getting grant after grant from the Ford Foundation or the H Smith Richardson Foundation or the Scaife Foundation and other assorted "non-profit foundations" I would have to write whatever bilge they asked me to.

    The DAE's single minded pursuit of independence from Uranium imports has been a thorn in the US based mafias that control the international uranium trade. Most of these Non-Proliferation joints look out for the Uranium industry's interests. The profits of a controlled trade in Uranium are used to pay for a sizable number of psyops and agitprop operations - all conducted under the guise perfectly legitimate socially responsible actions of non-profit foundations.

    The parallels between these guys and those Islamist preachers who perpetrate terror under the guise of religious activity are quite shocking.

    Sanjay D,

    Getting a design from a set of documents is not the same thing as building an actual reactor. These things aren't semi-knock down kits. It take much more than just a screw driver to put these things together.

    The DAE has completely altered most aspects of the design and successfully continued to build reactors even in the face of an international sanctions regime. If the DAE was simply assembling imported reactors in kit form - the entire thing would have stopped when the Canadians cut supplies in 1974. We have built over a dozen reactors after the Canadians and the Americans cut aid to us.

    Do you understand now where the indigenous content is?

    The Navy is incapable of building anything right now. There is no manufacturing capability in the Navy - all that is in the dockyards.

    The dockyards (eg MDL, GSRE, etc...) can barely build modern surface vessels, despite their recent successes (the P17 project, the Delhi class etc...) they are heavily dependent on technology imports for most of their tools and have little local R&D.

    There are two places in India today where a submarine can be built. The first is a line supplied by HDW. This line is mothballed per an agreement with HDW. The second place is where the ATV is being built.

    Look boss, if you don't know something just ask. This business of making informed sounding statements when actually requesting for knowledge very annoying.

    Enriched plutonium? what the devil is that? Never heard of such a thing.

  51. Sanjay D,

    Your notion of "common sense" defies understanding.

    A man in Capt. Subbarao's position is as much a part of the ruling class as anyone else in DAE is. Membership of this elite comes with privileges and responsibility. For Capt. Subbarao to now pretend he was simply a common person mistreated by the ruling elite is absurd.

    Shared core of Dhruva and CIRUS? so what? yes the core design is the same. It is the PHWR design, which is openly published scientific material - not proprietary information - the US and Canada do not OWN the design - the Canadian have built a PHWR and we have built a PHWR. The core of CIRUS was replaced as part of a life extension program. If the fact that the PHWR design was first published by a Canadian is taken as a statement of intellectual property then all of modern photonics and non-linear optics is the intellectual property of C V Raman and should be strictly licensed by the Government of India.

    Cheating the Donors? what nonsense. The donors gave us a natural uranium fueled reactor, they gave us a Pu refining line for the spent fuel. They had no clauses on how the spent fuel was to be treated and they did not have any limits on the manner in which the Natural uranium was to be bred in the PHWR.

    If we chose to use the PHWR and Pu refining line to make a peaceful nuclear explosive - a non-weaponized configuration for peaceful land excavation purposes we didn't cheat anyone.

  52. Hi Maverick, Sanjay D,

    Well this discussion sure rocks, its getting quite HOT though! Of course, everyone knows that DAE is a large Dept. doing a great job. Maverick, personally, I beleive that constructive criticism is useful as it helps one see all sides of the coin and apologize, if my posts have crossed the line.

    Nonetheless, isn't it that in a democracy everyone rules? so Pardon me, I do not again get the "ruling class" argument/ elitist versus common man (So far I thought thanks to Mandal, we have to deal with caste (sigh), but this brings an entirely new class(sigh, sigh, sigh). Surely, any more discussion on this must form a seperate thread, we have digressed quite far from Rashmi's theme! I think, I will close my discussion here. It great getting acquainted with all of you and I thank Rashmi for starting this great discussion! good luck to Vikram Buddhi!

  53. i wrote the post in a hurry, typing "enrich" instead of "produce". big deal! The note stands loud and clear: pokhran-I was entirely based on cheating the donors, who gave the reactor, the heavy water and the cheating to donors happened by reprocessing spent fuel. so much for indigenous flag waving under the cover of secrecy when questioned! i do know what i'm talking about the 1991 incident.

    maverick -- it is now obvious you are running a hit job on subbarao on behalf of DAE. he wasn't _convicted_ under any rules or law. do you understand the difference between accusations/prima-facie complaint, a full chargesheet/indictment and fair trial leading to conviction or acquittal? I don't think inebriated with the power of your DAE benefactors, these ordinary issues ever encroached your conscience! for you, nuclear power primacy means any life, any due process of law is fair game. undertrial extended detention tantamounts to illegal incarceration.

    if you want to continue blowing the trumpet for the DAE master that scientist whistleblowers should be thrown in a ditch for the crime of rejecting designs (obviously DAE did not know civilized means of arguing their case stronger and appealing his rejection), feel free. just because you say you know this, doesn't mean so. we've all heard "trust me, i know" argument a million times.

    it is also sad any discussion of safety or loss of life is automatically labelled "leftist crap" for you. using labels or claiming secrecy or using lame notes "i know, you don't" are all clear signs of running out of arguments.

    turns out non-leftist (doesn't include india) countries have the best safety records, nuclear included, where a single nuclear incident can freeze the entire nuclear industry for decades. happy trumpeting!!

  54. "a non-weaponized configuration for peaceful land excavation purposes we didn't cheat anyone."

    You crack me up! Buddha smiled only because a small piece of land in arid Rajasthan happened to have been excavated. I've an on-going construction job in my backyard, perhaps I should ask the contractor to employ peaceful excavacation means you suggest instead of the noisy john deeres.

    For those who don't speak affected bureaucratese:

    1. Canada gave the CIRUS reactor -- India's first, well second if you count Apsara from the UK-- in the 1956 with assurances it will be _used for peaceful purposes_. (funny you quote the exact words "peaceful land excavation purposes"). US gave Heavy Water for it. India produced plutonium by reprocessing spent fuel, CIRUS being the only place to do so until the 1980s (when its core sharing twin Dhruva.. the epitome of indigenous design operationalized).

    2. So, you are the final authority to vouch all of that "peacefully prouced plutonium" went only to make the buddha smile at pokhran-I in 1974. That is it!!? You must be more knowledgeable than so many people from jane's weekly to hardcore rightist scientists to the "leftist crap" people differing only the exact number of warheads that plutonium ended up into Indian's CMD (whatever the TLA for its deterrence) nuclear arsenal?

    Hey, even the Pakistanis have more conscience in admitting they stole or misused others' technology.

  55. The hypocritical claims of using CIRUS for peaceful purposes -- the fulcrum upon which the entire moral, technological and legal arguments of Indian nuclear establishment rest -- will come a full circle very shortly. India has bitterly negotiated its right to designate each reactor under the military or civilian list. And it has no option but to put CIRUS and Dhruva under the military list, contrasting its three decades old pack of lies. That day is very close!

    Maverick -- the masters forgot to tell you it is time to turn off the parrotted line "peaceful excavation purposes" in light of the US-Indian agreement.

    Now, don't get me wrong. I don't believe in nuclear apartheid -- US should have nukes and India shouldn't. I am sick of the extermely haughty Indian nuclear establishment running roughshod over (as the self-proclaimed elitist class) ordinary citizen's concern or churning out whole truth for citizen consumption from a pack of lies.

    BAE's survival rests on magnifying many times the indigenous component. Too bad, Subba rao tried to call a spade a spade. I salute the man for standing up, regardless of his politics!

  56. Phony,

    Class is always an issue, you can view it from the lens of privilege but I prefer to say that every social segment comes with its constraints.

    There is a disparity in the manner in which espionage is dealt with, and Dr. Subbarao despite his claims quite frankly had an easy ride compared to others who faced similar charges.

    Sanjay D,

    You are extremely keen to give DAE the benifit of malice. Your real or imagined grudge against the Government of India has jaundiced your mind.

    What is this 1991 incident you keep talking about? lets hear it.

    After 1974, the Canada and US abrograted the agreement on peaceful uses of nuclear technology. Once the agreement was broken by them - we had no restrictions on developing solutions that met our national security needs.

    We have neither stolen nor misued anything. In designing the fission experiment at Pokharan we violated no clause of agreement under which the technology was shared with us. The West chose to interpret our experiment in Pokharan as a weapons test - which it was not. The device was intended for peaceful purposes only, it was not a weaponized configuration - there was no way to deliver the device to a target. The truth has an enduring quality - when they said it was "peaceful" they were telling the truth.

    The Pakistanis are addicted stealing. There is no indigenous development there at all. Their own smuggling industry stifles the intiative to innovate. This is how we differ from them.

    The US is keen to sell India nuclear materials and technology, some people say they want to sell us nuclear material from their old warheads. Some also say this will help the US deal in the short term with their storage problems at WIPP and Carlsbad. The US insists that we segregate our facilities in order to ensure that the sale of the material is not blocked in the US Congress. The term "military" is only now being used because now there is a national consensus towards sustained production of weapons grade plutonium. Until recently the recovery of weapons grade Plutonium from CIRUS and Dhruva was actually very low. These reactors were mostly used to produce medical isotopes for a BARC subsidary called BRIT.

    The DAE isn't elitist, it just doesn't fill the air with random chatter. There is a large amount of material available in their published reports and their journals. No country's nuclear establishment is particular chatty. Given the way people like you react to the release of the truth - for example your bizarre refusal to accept the truth that the 1974 test was a peaceful experiment with no intended weapons use - who can blame the DAE for being the quiet sort.

    If you choose to believe the lies and hype peddled by the Non-Proliferation community and you choose to use the "facts" they provide to attack the DAE, then there is little I can do to stop you. Some people might think you are intelligent because you sound like you know so much, but one might very well think otherwise.

  57. "The West chose to interpret our experiment in Pokharan as a weapons test - which it was not. The device was intended for peaceful purposes only," -- Maverick the Omniscient, April 2006

    “The Pokhran test was a bomb, I can tell you now. An explosion is an explosion, a gun is a gun, whether you shoot at someone or shoot at the ground. I just want to make clear that the test was not all that peaceful.” Raja Ramanna in 1997 on Pokhran I to PTI.

    The age-old parrotted lies about "peaceful" purposes that only schoolboys or a population of a semi-closed economy listening only to Doordarshan would swallow are no longer tenable. Update your story, even Ramanna did so he won't be called a hypocrite after his death when the entire truth comes out.

    This is similar to the fallacy of socialist economy in India's first four decades that became untenable with the BoP crisis in 1991 forcing opening up.

    Societies evolve and learn from their past grave mistakes. If you want to cling to the flag hypocritically and call every one that sheds some sunlight with a grudge, enjoy the wallowing in the denial!

    The day India claims CIRUS under military list is your day or reckoning to come out of the denial that CIRUS was used peacefully. Donors don't break any agreement after giving the reactor and the heavy water. The chutzpah of a beggar!!

  58. Sanjay D,

    Dr. Ramanna is correct in stating that it was a bomb, in that it did generate a large amount of energy in a very short amount of time. The exact statement was made by our Prime Minister Indira Gandhi to the country on the floor of the parliament.

    It is very different to build a nuclear fission experiment, i.e. something that uses nuclear materials to create explosive force and to build a weapon, something that can actually be delivered to a target. This requires a very different approach one that was not followed in India.

    If you choose to read the word "bomb" as implying that the device was a weapon, then yes you might interpret it as a very "unpeaceful" thing to do, but that is a matter of interpretation.

    The text of the agreement was that we were not supposed to build a weapon. There was nothing that said we could not carry out research on nuclear explosives. Simply because we carry out research in nuclear explosives doesn't imply that we intend to build a weapon. By that logic a dozen countries that have signed the NPT are developing weapons. We should raise hell immediately if Germany or Japan even develop the smallest piece of technology that could concievably aid the production of nuclear weapons. These are countries with a history of facism, surely that is bad enough? and the Japanese .. they surely have a country or two they would really like to nuke? so why not haul them over coals?

    This talk of socialism and liberalization etc... is meaningless in the context of nuclearization. There is no connection between the economic model chosen to develop the nation and the manner in which nuclear research and development was pursued.

    If India had chosen to pursue a weapons program at that time, we would have simply used all our reactors to produce large quantities of weapons grade plutonium. We would not have been having this discussion on whether we should produce large quantities of plutonium now - if we had already decided to make weapons years ago now would we?

    The only denial here is the one you are persisting in - the denial that Government of India was telling the truth all along.

    Look boss, if you prefer to believe what those Non-Proliferation experts tell you- then I think you should feel free, but I can't say that what you are believing is in any way accurate.

    I don't know what you keep bringing up the fact that CIRUS is on the military list. Yes it has been put nominally on the military list. I think in your imagination you see CIRUS as some sort of secret weapons factory, that has for the past so many years been churning out weapons grade plutonium. It is a misconception fostered by the Non-Proliferation community and its propaganda.

    To me (and those who don't believe that propaganda) CIRUS is just an experimental reactor assembly, used to test out key elements and materials for the INDU design. CIRUS has been under IAEA safeguards for its entire lifespan. The reason it is on the military list is because that is the only way for DAE to protect proprietary technology and intellectual property - i.e. the very same reason that the FBRs at Kalpakkam and the AWHR experiments (Kamini etal) are under the military list - it is the most efficient way to protect against commerical espionage.

    To you CIRUS is some example of India's perfidy - living proof that India was "cheating the donors" all along, to me it is a tired old reactor that will soon be decomissioned because the cost in money and time of repairing it would pay for up to two brand new INDU reactors.

    If the national consensus develops towards the development of a large arsenal of Pu based weapons, then it is possible the two new INDUs that replace CIRUS will be used to make weapons grade Pu. That is a big "IF", one does not know what the national consensus will dictate.

  59. save yourself the waffling and fidgeting. "peaceful" does not equate a weapon. don't make a fool of yourself by further splitting hair between weapon and a bomb. enough!

    to own up to past fidgeting, mistakes of closed economy and drop the hypocritical foreign policy rhetoric of the past. time to move on to the 21st century of young, informed indian citizen who are intelligent and globally aware to see through the sophistry. the days of passing off the same-old BS of mai-baap-sarkar-knows-best are gone.

    wake up, maverick! even the old generation of ramanna dropped the hypocrisy. don't stay behind. read your own quote next to ramanna's... the nonsensical explanations and semantic contortions are beginning to sound like the enron CEO in the defendant's box.

  60. Rashmi -- thank you for bringing to our attention the connection of Vikram and Subba rao.

    Phony -- thank you for standing up for individual rights and unsafety of nuclear devices.

    We have brought the proponents of the outdated myth of "peaceful" nuclear program kicking and screaming to acknowledging Pokhran I was a bomb... of course they must save face it was "a bomb, not weapon" when every school child knows the effect of that underground bomb if it went off in New Delhi or Mumbai or Lahore overground. That arrogant nuclear establishment in the early decades deceived the foreign donors of research reactors and in the latter deceived indian people with the smokescreen of nuclear energy, and in the process burnt people like Subba rao as inconsequential worthless machhars.

    It is time for me to leave this discussion. The future of India belongs to a straight faced generation that would rather assert:

    1. "yes, we carried out nuclear weapons programs";
    2. "yes, we had too much hypocrisy in talking about peaceful nuclear energy just like the oxymoron of non-aligned or socialist garibi-hatao", and
    3. "yes, lack of oversight on the nuclear establishment by anyone except the PM, sometimes -- like Shastri's first year -- not even that, diverted resources from nuclear energy to address our growing energy needs".


  61. Sanjay D,

    There you go with the hypocrisy kick again.

    Per your logic the Govt. of India

    1) lied to the Americans and Canadians and "enriched plutonium",
    2) lied to the world about the "peaceful" part,
    3) lied to to the country about the success of its reactor program,
    4) lied to the world about what it did at CIRUS,
    5) lied about the ATV project,
    6) lied to crush Capt. B. K. Subbarao and
    7) lied about everything else under the sun.

    In your world view, did the Govt. of India do anything besides lie?

    Where does all this hostility towards the Government of India come from?

    Why do you feel compelled to believe that everything the GoI tells you is a lie?

    Kuch paisa baki hain aap ka?

    Now your denial extends to rejecting the fact that a "bomb" is useless unless it can actually be delivered to a target.

    Are you genuinely unaware of the difference or are you being summarily dismissive?

    Feel free to leave the discussion, but in my experience people usually tend to leave a discussion when they know they have lost. I for one will sorely miss your Non-Proliferation community inspired (lack of) knowledge.

    Young or Old - the argumentative Indian will always exist. If you wish to stamp your youth in any meaningful way on the country's future you will have to come up with facts to back up your arguments. You could try to run away from the argument like others (eg. misguided youth in J&K and Punjab took solace in the gun), but you will not get far.

    It is sad when someone claims to be an argumentative Indian, and then falls short of expectations like this. When I got to the dargah I will ask for mannat, that you don't make the rest of us "argumentative Indians" a bad name.

    Allah Hafiz

  62. Vikram Buddhi has since been released on bond.

    Purdue student accused of threatening president released on bond
    The Times of Northwest Indiana

    HAMMOND - B.K. Subbarao, a decorated captain of the Indian Navy and an accomplished attorney on the subcontinent, came to his son's rescue Tuesday in federal court.

    Subbarao's son, Vikram Buddhi, is charged with using stolen identities on the Internet to post messages exhorting readers to kill President George Bush and other leaders and to blow up American infrastructure.

    At a hearing in April, U.S. District Magistrate Andrew Rodovich said Buddhi, 35, was a flight risk and refused to release him on bond.

    On Tuesday, with Subbarao vouching for his son, the judge released Buddhi on $100,000 bond. Rodovich ordered Buddhi to live with his father in a nearby hotel during his trial and to refrain from using the Internet.

    Subbarao said Buddhi comes from an honorable family that would not harbor a fugitive from American justice and that Buddhi would never be able to work in his field with criminal charges hanging over his head.

    Prosecutors objected to the release, saying they recently discovered text files on Buddhi's computer indicating the Purdue University graduate student had an "absolute vile hate" for the Bush administration.

    "When read as a whole, it makes you wonder about Mr. Buddhi's mindset," Assistant U.S. Attorney Philip Benson said during Tuesday's hour-long detention hearing. "Someone who incites other people to assassinate and blow up nuclear plants and airports, we believe, is a danger."

    Buddhi, a native of India, has been a student and part-time teacher of math and engineering at Purdue's West Lafayette campus for almost 10 years.

    The 11-count federal indictment alleges Buddhi hijacked Internet Protocol addresses of other Purdue students to post messages on Internet chat rooms last December justifying the murder of Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney and raping their wives. He also made threats against Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and sensitive American infrastructure, the government says.

    During an initial meeting with authorities at the university, Buddhi admitted making the Internet threats, prosecutors say.

    But on Tuesday, Subbarao suggested that someone else must have hacked into his son's computer to make it appear that Buddhi had posted the threats.

    Buddhi's federal defender, John Martin, has requested to have the confession stricken from the record, saying Buddhi was not informed of his rights and did not have an attorney present.

    His attorney told Rodovich Buddhi had been assaulted in jail in Hammond and Porter County since his arrest.

  63. the latest update is given
    Father pleads for justice in son's suspension
    By Sarah Michalos
    Summer Editor

    B.K. Subbarao isn't trying to argue for his son's innocence. He doesn't want to cause trouble with the University. He just wants Purdue officials to admit when they're wrong.

    "I'm not here to say my son is innocent, I'm not here to plead his case," Subbarao said. "I don't want sympathy; I want justice."

    Subbarao's son, graduate student Vikram Buddhi, was suspended from the University in April after being arrested on April 14 on charges of threatening to kill President Bush, Vice President Dick Cheney and their wives and threatening to use explosives.

    On July 19, Buddhi was released on $100,000 bond by a Hammond, Ind., judge after Subbarao, a decorated captain in the Indian Navy, vouched that his son was not a flight risk. Buddhi was ordered to reside with his father and not use the Internet while he awaits his Aug. 15 trial.

    Subbarao said he believes the University violated regulations pertaining to its disciplinary action against Buddhi and has exchanged e-mails with and met with several officials. On July 24, in an e-mail to Michael Brzezinski, director of international students and scholars program, Subbarao said the conditions of Buddhi's bond are that he must either maintain or actively seek employment, or maintain or commence an education program.

    "My son has been here teaching for nine years and he's made some kind of contribution, however humble it may be," Subbarao said.

    In order to work legally, Buddhi must have a student visa, but his expired on May 14. Joe Bennett, vice president for University Relations, said Buddhi's visa renewal was denied because he was not in good standing.

    "Under federal regulations, he must be a student in good standing for the University to authorize that," Bennett said. "Therefore, he's not in that status and it was not possible for the University to extend his student status for his visa."

    Under the second condition of the bond release, Buddhi must maintain or commence an education program. His status is still suspended, Bennett said, and that cannot change until he schedules a hearing with the University.

    "That can only be addressed through a hearing, which the University is prepared to hold," he said.

    Subbarao said Buddhi was advised by his attorney, John Martin, to exercise his Fifth Amendment right and not speak to University officials as it may have an effect on his federal trial. Therefore, there will not be a hearing scheduled until Buddhi decides to speak with officials.

    Bennett said, however, that the University and the kernal process are two different things. "They're completely seperate ... the hearing still has to happen and the University process must be completed; they can't be without a hearing," he said.

    Another of Subbarao's concerns is that his son was ruled to not be a threat by the federal court, yet Purdue will not use that ruling to guide its own disciplinary action.

    "The ruling is something that obligates him to meet certain criteria, but does not obligate the University in any way," Bennett said.

    Although Subbarao said he will continue to work to have his son's status restored, Bennett said the process is at a standstill.

    "Purdue has followed its policies and procedures correctly and obeyed the law in all actions related to the case."

  64. Anonymous9:23 AM

    减速机 齿轮减速机 SEW减速机 摆线针轮减速机 蜗轮蜗杆减速机 interlining
    明星代言 明星经纪公司
    制动单元 铝壳电阻
    modern abstract art sofa manufacturer
    净水器 开水器 净水机 净水 软水机 软水 直饮机 家用净水 家用净水器 家用净水机 中央净水 中央净水器 水家装 水家电 水卫士 混合机
    过滤机 DHL快递 俄罗斯签证 回转支承 Laser marking
    保险箱 法兰 法兰标准
    polycarbonate sheet 回流焊 波峰焊
    压球机 注册上海公司 儿童摄影
    牛皮癣 皮肤病 制氮机
    食堂售餐机 校园一卡通
    学校一卡通 ic卡售饭机
    食堂售饭机 深圳一卡通
    广东售饭机 机电设备安装
    北京发票 代开发票
    餐饮发票 住宿发票
    网络电话 免费网络电话
    假发 补发
    织发 植发
    压滤机 板框压滤机
    蒸馏水机 纯蒸气发生器
    上海搬家公司 上海搬场公司
    大众搬家 大众搬场
    张家界旅游 香港旅游
    深圳旅行社 打包机
    收缩机 对讲机 电源模块
    售饭机 水控机 水控器
    萎缩性胃炎 neoprene laptop bags
    SEO优化 计量泵
    胃炎 胃病
    冷水机 冰水机
    北京特价机票 北京打折计票 北京国际机票
    北京机票预定 北京飞机票
    北京订机票 北京机票查询 饮料机械
    银杏 水培花卉 企业宣传片 空分设备
    化工泵 离心机
    电话交换机 程控交换机 集团电话 集装袋
    混合机 混合机
    混合机捏合机 捏合机
    捏合机导热油炉 导热油炉
    导热油炉 反应釜 反应釜
    反应釜 spherical roller bearing
    搬运车 搬运车 电动搬运车 油桶搬运车 堆高车 电动堆高车 半电动堆高车 堆垛车
    高空作业平台车 电动叉车 平衡重叉车 前移叉车 电瓶叉车
    韩国饰品批发 模块电源
    X架 超薄灯箱> 易拉宝 展柜制作
    代理服务器 游戏加速器 网络加速器
    网通加速器 电信加速器 电信网通转换器
    电信网通加速器 网通电信互转
    网通电信互通 网络游戏加速器
    美国VPN代理 美国独享VPN 美国独享IP
    pvc ceiling panel Spherical roller bearings
    安全鞋 劳保鞋 防砸鞋 电绝缘鞋 上海安全鞋 上海劳保鞋 江苏劳保鞋
    服装软件 服装管理软件 进销存软件
    进销存管理软件 服装管理系统 服装进销存软件
    进销存系统 进销存管理系统 免费进销存软件
    吉林中医 东北特产
    阳痿 阴茎短小 阴茎增大
    早泄 前列腺炎 阴茎增粗 阴茎延长
    国际机票 上海国际机票
    国际特价机票 国际打折机票
    砂磨机 砂磨机
    砂磨机 卧式砂磨机
    卧式砂磨机 卧式砂磨机
    三辊研磨机 三辊研磨机
    三辊研磨机 混合机 混合机
    混合机 锥形混合机 锥形混合机 锥形混合机 行星动力混合机 行星动力混合机 行星动力混合机 无重力混合机 无重力混合机 无重力混合机
    干粉砂浆设备 干粉砂浆设备
    干粉砂浆设备 捏合机 捏合机 捏合机 导热油炉 导热油炉 导热油炉 反应釜 反应釜 反应釜 搪玻璃反应釜 搪玻璃反应釜 搪玻璃反应釜
    乳化机 涂料设备 干混砂浆设备 无重力混合机 胶体磨 涂料成套设备 双螺旋混合机
    北京婚庆 北京婚庆公司
    办证 呼吸机 制氧机
    亚都 亚都加湿器 亚都净化器
    饰品批发 小饰品批发 韩国饰品 韩国饰品批发 premature ejaculation penis enlargement
    安利产品 马来西亚留学
    网站优化 网站推广
    论文代写 代写论文
    拖链 防护罩 排屑机 塑料拖链 钢铝拖链
    深圳装饰 深圳装饰公司 深圳装修公司
    特价机票 打折机票 国际机票
    新风换气机 换气机 立式新风换气机 风机箱 新风系统 能量回收机
    搅拌机 混合机 乳化机
    毛刷 毛刷辊 工业毛刷 刷子 钢丝刷
    涂层测厚仪 硬度计
    兆欧表 激光测距仪
    测振仪 转速表
    温湿度计 风速仪
    噪音计 红外测温仪
    硬度计 万用表
    美容院 美容加盟
    澳洲留学 澳大利亚留学
    酒店预定 北京酒店预定 北京酒店
    nail equipment nail products nail product nail uv lamp nail uv lamp nail uv lamps uv nail lamp nail brush
    nail file nail tool nail tip nail gel curing uv lamps lights
    万用表 风速仪
    红外测温仪 噪音计
    苗木价格 苗木信息 标牌制作 深圳标牌 北京儿童摄影 防静电鞋 淘宝刷信誉
    威海凤凰湖 威海海景房 大庆密封件
    打标机 淘宝刷信誉 TESOL/TEFL国际英语教师证书 英语教师进修及培训 北京快递公司 北京国际快递

  65. Anonymous12:38 PM

    导热油炉吴桥县导热油炉锅有限责任公司是全国最大的生产导热油炉生产基地之一,公司主要生产各种导热油炉锅,熔盐炉, 转盘轴承,管式加热炉,蒸汽发生器,一二类压力容器.徐州回转支承 公司提供转盘轴承 --slewing ring slewing bearing slewing bearings服务. automation-industrial-industrial automation-slewing bearingslewing bearings


Disqus for Youth Curry - Insight on Indian Youth