Wednesday, June 07, 2006

Another one BITS the dust?

While all of India has been busy discussing who is sniffing which white powder, Mr Arjun Singh has injected the second dose of his lethal 'reservation' cocktail into the Indian education system.

The Indian Express on Sunday dt Jun 4 2006 reported :

On May 29, the very day the Supreme Court observed that quotas can divide the nation and asked the Government to explain its rationale behind the 27% OBC quotas, HRD Minister Arjun Singh further tightened the quota screws on the higher-education sector, both public and private.

In a note prepared that day for the Cabinet, his Ministry has proposed a legislation with provisions that give the Government unprecedented power not only to impose quotas in over 100 “deemed universities” over and above 32 Central institutions but also to regulate their fees, selection procedure—and even take punitive action.

So not just IITs, IIMs and AIIMS, the institutions which are brought into the 27% OBC quota net include Birla Institute of Technology and Science, Pilani; Manipal Academy of Higher Education; Pune’s Symbiosis International Education Centre and the Tata Institute of Social Sciences.


This was, of course the original intention of the 93rd constitutional amendment. To give the government control over all educational institutes - not just publicly funded ones. The 'Education in India' (Prayatna) blog has summarised the sequence of events beautifully, so I shall merely reproduce what's been written there:

The Supreme Court delivered an unanimous judgement by 7 judges on August 12, 2005 in the case of P.A. Inamdar & Ors. vs. State of Maharashtra & Ors.declaring that the State can't impose its reservation policy on minority and non-minority unaided private colleges, including professional colleges.

Politicians ko yeh hazam nahin hua.

The Minister for Human Resource Development, Arjun Singh, drafted and piloted the 104th Constitution Amendment Bill which was passed in the Lok Sabha on December 21st with 379 votes in favour and one vote against and one abstaining. The Rajya Sabha also passed it on December 22nd with 172 votes in favour and only two against.

Only minority education institutions were kept out of the purview of the bill - and that was the only aspect of the bill which the BJP opposed.


According to the Constitution 93rd amendment Act

"(5) Nothing in this article or in sub-clause (g) of clause (1) of article 19 shall prevent the State from making any special provision, by law, for the advancement of any socially and educationally backward classes of citizens or for the Scheduled Castes or the Scheduled Tribes in so far as such special provisions relate to their admission to educational institutions including private educational institutions, whether aided or unaided by the State, other than the minority educational institutions referred to in clause (1) of article 30."

Prayatna further notes

Article 15 of the constitution, as it was originally framed in 1950, stated the following and did not include the term "admission to educational institutions".

15. Prohibition of discrimination on grounds of religion, race, caste, sex or place of birth.
- The State shall not discriminate against any citizen on grounds only of religion, race, caste, sex, place of birth or any of them.

No citizen shall, on grounds only of religion, race, caste, sex, place of birth or any of them, be subject to any disability, liability, restriction or condition with regard to
(a) access to shops, public restaurants, hotels and places of public entertainment; or
(b) the use of wells, tanks, bathing ghats, roads and places of public resort maintained wholly or partly out of State funds or dedicated to the use of the general public.

Nothing in this article shall prevent the State from making any special provision for women and children.

Article 15 was first amended by the the Constitution (First Amendment) Act, 1951 enacted on June 18, 1951. While this Amendment mentions "educational advancement", it does not use the term "admission to educational institutions" either.

So basically, there is no compulsion for anyone to introduce 'quotas' and that too based on the Mandal Commission definition of OBC.

It is politicians who redefined and subverted the idea of 'educational advancement' into admission into graduate and post graduate courses by reservation.

And I have no idea why BITS Pilani, which so far has had 0% reservation, should accept this kind of dispensation. Surely it infringes on their basic Constitutional rights - although I am no legal expert to be able to pinpoint exactly.

Watch out here we come...

Among the key provisions of the proposed Bill, titled Central Educational Institutions (Reservation of Seats and Regulation of Admission and Fee) Bill, 2006 : (as per Express on Sunday)

There will be a “differential fee structure” for SC/ ST/ OBC students to make “reservation a meaningful reality.”

There are alternate means to fulfil this goal such as scholarships, low or zero interest loans - as is done in other countries. Because if these institutes start making losses because the government is fixing their fee structure, unlike IITs and IIMs they can't simply throw up their hands and ask the Centre for 'more funds'. Or can they?

The Government can, "by order, direct any Central Educational Institution to increase the number of seats in each branch or faculty," to protect the number of seats available for general students.

Again, who will bear the cost of such an expansion? BITS for example has just setup a new campus in Goa. And plans another in Hyderabad in 2007. Does that count? And if they refuse to increase seats in Pilani, isn't it their prerogative??

Unaided institutions deemed to be universities shall make admissions in “a fair and transparent manner,” on the basis of qualifying examinations prescribed by UGC.

BITS is the first institute in India to have an online exam - BITSAT. Now I suppose that will have to be scrapped?

I asked a BITS Pilani student for a reaction and here's what he had to say:

A majority of my friends are shocked by the news ( that the much-protested reservations are going to be implemented in BITS as well). The reason is that admission into our insti. is *purely* on the basis of merit- caste plays absolutely no role.

So all of us were of the opinion that if the government cant force us to have quotas for SC/ST's, then they can't push us into introducing reservations for OBCs etc. This arm-twisting by the Govt. is resented by the students (I do not know the management's opinion ).

Quite a few were secretly hoping that quotas be implemented in IITs (as I've said earlier: all this while we were thinking that we were immune )-so that the quality of IITs decline, and we become the undisputed #1 college in the country.


Let's not start squabbling over that last statement. Because there you have it - nobody is going to 'escape' Mr Arjun Singh's prescription for social justice. Can Indian education survive his overdose or will it prove fatal? The outlook is looking pretty bleak!

70 comments:

  1. Ah hell, here we go. Where do we stop? AFAIK BITS does not receive any UGC funds and it successfully resisted Murli Manohar Joshi's attempt to push it into AIEEE. Lets see them tackle this. And Rashmi I don't think it was very wise to put out that last part of his mail as regards BITS being the undisputed no 1 when the IITs go down. Logical as it may seem this would invite unnecessary wrath by some on the basis of a personal remark. Hope that doesn't happen here.

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  2. Arjun Singh, oh Arjun Singh! Aren't thou great?

    Passed over for PM? Want to unleash your wrath and show them who's in charge? No problem: just kill the education goose that lays the golden economic-development egg.

    Think Rang De Basanti guys. We do know what to do. Question is: who will, and where?

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  3. I guess it is time for some extreme RDB level steps. Rational, logic, protests, petition, hartal, immolation and hunger strike all failed. Who needs funds for the "project"?

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  4. Rashmi,
    Thanx for visiting my blog. I have mailed in your yahoo ID showing my willingness to get the blog published in JAM MAG. Do let me know if you are OK with it.

    PC

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  5. I think it is obvious but just clarify that above comment was not serious, though sadly I can't say it was in jest either.

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  6. Expect a flight of capital and schools out of the country. It is the swinging 80s again, huge imbalances, precarious currency situation, ridiculous budget.

    I guess they just have to increase the spendings in welfare ponzi schemes a little bit before our forex reserves run dry.

    I do not rule out a full scale civil strife, remember the party in center is a specialist in causing riots.

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  7. By the way, they are actively stifling the voice of protest. People were wondering what happened to the Engineering students?

    http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_1714017,001302220000.htm

    The reason is very simple. Till the 80's it was easy to create a smokescreen by hiding data. It is no longer possible in the days of info age, as blogger realitycheck points out and remains optimistic about.

    We are heading towards emergency folks. Fill your liquor cabinets and rent DVDs. Gonna be a fun indoor family picnic.

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  8. Hi Rashmi,

    I have been following your posts on this Issue for a while.

    Couple of things I wanted to comment on:

    1) Is everybody making an assumption that the reason for the high incidence of Upper Castes in the Merit based system due to Genetic superiority? That would be a bit unscientific wouldn’t it? Some might even project it as being Neo-Nazi? Isn’t the reason a lot of upper caste people making it to the Elite Institutes more a function of their upbringing and an exposure to Opportunities that exist in the Upper end of the ladder? The Reason for the Lower caste people being the way they are is because of years of discrimination and deliberate suppression of their rights to education and opportunities. Reservation is a way of paying back for the years of oppression by giving exposure to Opportunities and Environment, which are otherwise very difficult to get or will take longer to normalize in terms of making the Indian Universities a Level playing Field for all Castes.

    2) I don’t see how people can react so badly when it comes to reservation. About 10000 people get into IITs. Assuming there is no reservation a person who doesn’t get into IIT has nothing to blame. You shrink this number to say 9000 and 10 lakh people think that a grave injustice is done to them because they would have been part of the 1000. These numbers are purely illustrative and I was giving an example of only one University. I am just trying to point out that there is more to this hue and cry apart from the lost opportunities? What exactly is bothering everybody? Have we truly eradicated the Caste System? There is a lot of discrimination that happens in the villages today. Lower Caste women are mistreated in front of their spouses in villages. Women of certain lower castes are not allowed to cover their top part of their bodies in certain villages. I done see big protests happening in Cities to address these issues? If you want to solve the problem address the basic issues, then nobody would need a reservation.

    I am grateful to our government for giving me the opportunity to Study in IIT and then IIMA. I have been in the US for the past 6 years and earn a 6-figure salary. Today I don’t depend on my caste to earn a living. People in my company don’t even know which education Institutions I went to. I work here free from any prejudices. I don’t think I would have even been aware of these opportunities if it wasn’t for my Father who benefited from reservation by going to an Engineering college hence getting awareness of the opportunities and then passed it on to me and got me to go to the Premier Institutes.

    How about taking a survey of the Low Caste people in the villages to see how many people know about IIT’s or IIM’s and how that would impact their lives? You work for a magazine you should be able to take this up.

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  9. Mr. Raj,

    Please make up your mind, are we Jews or are we Nazis? Kancha Ilaiah and most dalit sites (dalitvoice.org, dalitstan.org, countercurrents.org) tend to think we are Jews.

    There are several plot holes in your script. For instance, how did sending you to IIT help the poor woman who was being hassled? You scrammed from the country at the very first opportunity, nothing wrong with that, but there is a severe disconnect between problem and remedy, don't you think?

    Also, while your question-answer format is sort of fascinating, you seem to have answered most of the questions yourself, giving us little room for improvisation.

    Significant logical fallacy: if 10 lakh upper-caste shouldn't care for a mere 10,000 seats which they couldn't get anyway, why are 200 million dalits clamoring for them?

    You don't mention whether you are a Dalit or an OBC. If you are Dalit, you really don't make much sense. This whole fiasco is about OBC reservations. I would simply sit on the sidelines till the private sector issue came up.

    Lastly, pulling a mere six figure salary, that too for a IIT/IIM alumnus, is not really worth writing home about, especially when you don't do your alma maters proud by letting everyone at your work know which institutes you went to.

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  10. Return of Quota Raj and Mr. raj supporting it too LOL!

    Are we walking back to 70's and 80's? The return of quota raj system? will our growth rates slip back to the "much talked Hindu rate of growth?"

    Will these reservations affect the macro-economic parameters? Any study done by any non-governmental institution could help us clarify this!

    As per Mr. Raj's own statement, his father used reservation, but he has (mis)used them twice, once for IIT and then for IIM again. I know many such people who have used reservations for more than 2 generations and more than 2 times. *SICK* system and *SICK* peopel who misuse it. !

    Flight of talent and capital, as said by another friend above, is inevitable! Indian Commies will be the happiest on Earth, since no MNC will want to invest in a country, which does not encourage merit vis-a-vis caste.

    ON TOP of all this, Quotas in Private Sectors! Is this country being fed to dogs in bits and pieces?!!!

    Rashmi, What are the steps taken by Alumni Associations of IITs/IIMs and other such institutions of excellence? Shouldn't they send strong signals to the centre that they may not invest here if such quotas are implemented here?!!

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  11. Raj (and pro-quota band),
    Most people who support reservations see caste-based quotas as an easy way of delivering social justice. Lets get two things straight here before
    I get into picking loopholes in your argument - one, people are not debating reservations per se but the parameter (caste-based)and nature of institutions (of higher education)in which they are set to get implemented. Many of us believe that quotas, if at all, should go to the needy, not to someone just basis his caste. And i have seen enough pampered SC/STs in my life to believe that backward class=socially deprived=needy is a very flawed equation.
    Second, more fundamentally, if you have a problem of unequal initial
    endowments, I would like to believe the solution lies in 'positive empowerment' in terms of solid primary education, eradication of child labour, etc. As affirmative actions, sure reservations is 'quick-shot'while the others are more long-term but its easy to see which option is more sustainable.

    Imagine you have two kids starting a 100m race and one of them has a
    broken leg: its easy to see that the situation is not 'fair' on the kid with the broken leg. Does the solution lie in fixing that broken leg, or in saying that the poor kid wins if he can run 20m in the same time that the other runs 100? Yes you are compromising on the very spirit of competitive sport, you are setting a wrong example (others with a broken leg will not have an incentive to get it fixed), you are hiding a wide-spread problem (the govt will no longer feel they need to do
    something about this problem of broken legs...like providing healthcare)and you are making the poor kid believe he is in the right profession with a broken leg, when he clearly isn't. Makes sense?

    If a big proportion of OBCs are still very backward and indeed need support why are we not asking each State govt for a report-card on primary education: why can't we have timelines for 100% literacy then! Politicians can only impose rules is it, accountability is for others!
    And who would benefit from reservations in institutes of higher education? The really needy "unpaadh" OBC or the educated, much-better-off OBC?
    A report by the Parliamentary Committee on the Welfare of SCs & STs: Between 1995 & 2000, 50% of seats reserved for the SCs were filled (33% for STs)for the undergraduate level at the Delhi University. The rest were empty. So where should the focus be - in quotas in higher edu or somewhere else?

    More loopholes now specifically on your points...I'm getting really late for lunch but I don't mind-
    1. "Level playing Field for all Castes": does level playing field mean equal opportunities or equal no of seats? you decide.

    2. " About 10000 people get into IITs. Assuming there is no reservation a person who doesn’t get into IIT has nothing to blame. You shrink this number to say 9000 and 10 lakh people think that a grave injustice is done to them because they would have been part of the 1000.": Your nos are not only illustrative, they are way off the mark. You are talking about 10000 becoming 5000 here (after all reservations), not 9000: and 10 lakh people have every right to believe they could have been part of that 5000: there is a big talent-opportunities gap in our country, and we're making it much worse!

    3. "Lower Caste women are mistreated in front of their spouses in villages....If you want to solve the problem address the basic issues, then nobody would need a reservation."
    Precisely...so you tell me what the basic issue is!

    4. "I don’t think I would have even been aware of these opportunities if it wasn’t for my Father who benefited from reservation by going to an Engineering college...": so you are no longer backward see...so why should you or your kids be also given reservations? Tell this to our politicians please.

    Don't take this personally pls...you're a fellow WIMWIan afterall; only I feel v strongly abt this issue...this is pure vote-bank politics, why can't you see that?

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  12. Reservation makes me sick. I am aspiring to study in the IIT and belonging to the higher castes makes my job more difficult. But I believe I can get in with 50 % reservation as well but what about those who belong to higher castes but cannot afford any coaching classes for JEE or CAT or anything. And now even BITS is coming under the reservation game.
    Some advice to Mr. Raj :
    Reservation was not meant for you as you were already a part of the 'creamy layer'. That is why reservation should be removed forever because those who need it don't get it and those who don't deserve itget the most of it. Also about the injustice to women, how in the world would reservation help their cause?

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  13. Hi Rashmi, I have a question. Why is the quota for OBC 27%?and why 22.5 for the sc/st? How did they arrive at those figures? Just a statistical confusion, thought you would know.

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  14. some after thoughts:
    quoting Mr.Raj:
    " Reservation is a way of paying back for the years of oppression by giving exposure to
    Opportunities and Environment, "
    I think this means that reservation is a form of revenge. Dr.Ambedkar never wanted this to happen. He wanted reservation to be for a limited period in which a generation of the people of lower castes be uplifted so that their future generations do not suffer. He also did not want people of higher castes to be treated unjustly because of reservation.

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  15. Oh..But Dr. B.R.Ambedkar is already a villain for many people!!

    ;))

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  16. Hi All,

    I really don’t like going Point- Counter point, but obviously there is no way around it.

    I am neither going to respond to the tone and language of some of the responses; evidently they are casteist in nature. Practically impossible to talk to somebody who has already made up his mind!

    The essence of what I was trying to say is that I only see criticism of the Governments action and no solutions coming from the general public. I do see a solution of making primary education free. How many of you have really thought through this? Is this solution viable? I think the very reason it is being proposed is because subconsciously a lot of people are aware that it wont work and that it will make sure it doesn’t affect anybody in the near future!!

    Everybody knows that primary education is worth crap if you can’t make it through college. You can’t make a living holding a 12th standard pass sheet, hell you can’t make a living holding a BSC degree. How can this be a solution if it is not really going to get the socially backward anywhere in life!! Making primary education free is something that needs to happen and will eventually happen but that is not going to empower the backward classes (living in the rural parts of India) in the near future; hence the big support for it. Everybody will be spared the effort of making a difficult decision for the society. Lets push the problem to our grandchildren and hope that somehow the problem will get resolved by Itself or just simply vanish.

    Analogies can be used to mislead and confuse and so can statistics. This is very common when your mind is set in a particular direction. It’s very easy to assimilate information selectively to support what you want to believe in. It’s a lot like the glass being half empty.

    There is an issue with people being rich and belonging to backward classes who will avail the reservation system. This is one of the main sources of frustration. I am not sure what percentage of people fall into this category and how many would abuse it but then I am not a big fan of Statistics. I am not sure how this problem can be addressed effectively given the extent of corruption in our system. People can pay money to change their Caste certificates today.

    I just wanted to add an analogy to an analogy given by Mr. Deep about the Broken Leg. I am a Christian but have read the Hindu mythology a lot. You must be aware of the story of Ganesha who circled his parents when the task was to go around the world. Shiva and Parvathy accepted his logic and give him the Fruit. There was no way Ganesha could have circled the world. What are Shiva and Parvathy trying to communicate by this? It’s okay to beat the system or the child with the broken leg should be encouraged!! Funny that a simple analogy can lead to a lot of conflicting inferences.

    Happy to know you are a WIMWIAN too. I guess it is Vote Bank Politics. They are politicians, what do you expect! A blind squirrel finds an acorn once in a while.

    The basic issue here is the Caste System and how that can be eradicated. The big question is does this move by the government take us closer to this goal? The response I am feeling from a lot of people is “I Don’t Care”. We are never going to solve the problem with a callous attitude. Seems like people react only when they are affected. The hunger strikes never happened when atrocities in the name of caste were/are being committed. When Strikes are done by people of the low castes they are often not reported and even if they are nobody cares.

    No Mr.Palash it is not a revenge game. All I am saying is that the current situation is the way it is because of what happened in the past. Given that everybody is born equal we wouldn’t be in the mess we are in if it wasn’t for what happened in the past. Fixing this is going to require some radical measures like the one taken by the Government.
    I accept the view that reservation should exist only for a small period of time. How small are we talking about? 10 years, 20? 40 years of independence has done little to our country!

    Mr. Barber, I do not understand your response or your logic. My reference to Nazis was to illustrate a point of genetic equality. If you want to believe you are a Jew, please go ahead. As far as 2 Million Dalits clamoring for the few seats, I don’t know if even 10% are aware of the existence of that seat and what it would mean to their lives.

    Mr Venkata Raman, Words fail me trying to respond to your statement on the country going to Dogs. I am disappointed that we are never going to resolve this problem as long as people continue to have this attitude.

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  17. Hi Raj,

    1st question: Did you also benefit from reservations after your father had already done so? Did you use the quota for your post graduation, i.e. IIM also?
    If yes, then is it fair to general category students who worked as hard or even harder than you did?

    2nd: If you come back to India, then will your children also avail of the quota benefits? If that were to be the case, will it be fair to other children who studied harder and were a few percentage points above yours? (They may or may not be as intelligent as your child but that is a different point..after all, we need some entry criteria for higher education/job, etc. Merit is not just IQ, but also hard work, discipline, presentation in exams, etc. Coaching can help you get to the merit list but not by itself.)

    You seem to think that all the people who oppose reservations are hell-bent on suppressing the lower castes. Sorry, we are not like that. We feel anguished when Dalit women are paraded naked, when Dalit children are not allowed to drink water from the same vessel as other kids. We do want everybody to have good primary and secondary education, to be able to realise their potential and be successful in life. The only thing we disagree with the government is on the means, not the end.
    Most of us in the younger generation of upper castes who live in the cities have played with children of all communities, shared tiffin with them in school without bothering to find out what their great-grandfather did. When we interview candidates for a job, we look at their qualifications and experience as well as communication skills, not their surnames or caste or creed. One fine day, your friend whose caste you never cared about and who also went to private coaching classes gets a medical seat for 92% whereas you with the same 92% has to make do with a B.Sc. seat. How would you feel? Would you think about 16th century atrocities or the present day? It is this fact that is causing the stir against reservations. Had the government used the money for subsidising quotas to institute an economic aid package and special coaching facilities for the poor/rural/backward people, nobody would be complaining.

    Q1. Should second-generaion or third-generation SC/SCT/NT/OBC candidates be allowed to avail of quotas?
    Q2. If quota is allowed upto the bachelor's level, why do we need it for post-graduation?
    Q3. If quota is allowed even at the Master's level, do we need it for private sector jobs/PhDs? After all, an Egg./medical/MBA degree should already place you at an advantage in the job market vis-a-vis B.Sc/BCom/BA grads, shouldn't it?
    Q4. If a person has availed of quota at an entry level job citing discrimination as the reason he/she cannot compete in the open field, will he/she also cite discrimination as an excuse for promotions? How far will this thing go? Tomorrow, the government might say - Oh, there aren't enough numbers of SC/ST/OBC managers and CEOs, so we need reservation there, too!

    Q5. Let me finally tell you one thing about the current city-bred young person. These people will respect anyone who has the talent and the grit to come up in life, no matter what his/her caste. Many of them are going in for intercaste love marriages against their orthodox parents' wishes. Unfortunately, rural areas are far behind. This city-bred guy is going to resent it when a person with lesser academic scores gets the same position, not because he thinks his caste is superior to the other, but because he feels he/she is more deserving. Slowly, the reserved category person may start feeling alienated among his/her peers, develop an inferiority complex and feel discriminated against, bringing the whole thing full circle. This will lead to a prejudice against the reserved category in general, no matter how deserving/smart/hardworking they are. And no government or law can stop prejudice.

    Rashmi, sorry for the long comment on your blog. It is my maiden comment, I think, on what is a very informative and enjoyable series of writings:).

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  18. Mr. Raj is providing a rare insight into Dalit minds. He is severely conflicted. There are parts in his own script that are clearly at odds with his logical faculty. Therefore he has built a defense mechanism. Anything that can not be explained away must be casteist.

    Don't tell him that last year a Rickshaw puller's kid made it to IIT. His brother will probably make it next year. Don't ever mention that several farmers' kids, poor kids from Patwatoli also achieved the same feat. A tea stall owner's son was ranked 34th in this year's civil services exam. Perhaps the most amazing feat was that of Anantlal Tudu, otherwise from a community officially listed as ST, he has ranked 50th in this year's JEE. His father thinks he is going to ITI!

    If you tell him these things, he will get seriously troubled because this was outside of the syllabus carefully prepared for him and rubbed into his brains by the local Padre. He will have to run back for more mantra.

    See, cheating was officially sanctioned by Shiv-Parvati. So who are we to oppose reservations? Our Gods are at fault, they are impure. Furthermore, we heckled Dalits 6000 years ago. We must atone for our sins.

    Raj, please take all our seats. You want money? Sure! Our women? Well, that's not our call dude, you have to ask them.

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  19. Non-Brahmin Hindu !

    The Permanent Solution I Think Is that :- Divide India Into Small Nations On Caste Lines, E.g. One Country For Brahmins, One for Upper Castes, One for OBC/SC/ST/Rest -- On the Basis of Population of the Caste. Every Caste Will have 100% Reservation in their Respective Country -- So Fighting Any More & All Will Develop. A Non Indian Commission of United Nations should be Formed to Divid India, to Maintain Impartiality, In Light of Historical Facts of Over 3000yrs, With No India In High Power Commission to Avoid Partiality. B/c In Present India Brahmins & Upper Castes Corners All Resources Meant for All Indians (OBC/SC/ST/REST INDIANS). Let's Face the Truths & Go For Final Solution that Is Once & For All !!

    ----- By For NOW !!!!

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  20. Non-Brahmin Hindu !

    The Permanent Solution I Think Is that :- Divide India Into Small Nations On Caste Lines, E.g. One Country For Brahmins, One for Upper Castes, One for OBC/SC/ST/Rest -- On the Basis of Population of the Caste. Every Caste Will have 100% Reservation in their Respective Country -- So Fighting Any More & All Will Develop. A Non Indian Commission of United Nations should be Formed to Divid India, to Maintain Impartiality, In Light of Historical Facts of Over 3000yrs, With No India In High Power Commission to Avoid Partiality. B/c In Present India Brahmins & Upper Castes Corners All Resources Meant for All Indians (OBC/SC/ST/REST INDIANS). Let's Face the Truths & Go For Final Solution that Is Once & For All !!

    ----- By For NOW !!!!

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  21. Non-Brahmin Hindu !

    The Permanent Solution I Think Is that :- Divide India Into Small Nations On Caste Lines, E.g. One Country For Brahmins, One for Upper Castes, One for OBC/SC/ST/Rest -- On the Basis of Population of the Caste. Every Caste Will have 100% Reservation in their Respective Country -- So Fighting Any More & All Will Develop. A Non Indian Commission of United Nations should be Formed to Divid India, to Maintain Impartiality, In Light of Historical Facts of Over 3000yrs, With No India In High Power Commission to Avoid Partiality. B/c In Present India Brahmins & Upper Castes Corners All Resources Meant for All Indians (OBC/SC/ST/REST INDIANS). Let's Face the Truths & Go For Final Solution that Is Once & For All !!

    ----- By For NOW !!!!

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  22. Mr Barber,

    A very funny response indeed. Please read your response and decide who has a defense mechanism. Your idea of a response is to make irrelevant statements and then an offensive one (a religious one at that) to prove a point that doesn’t exist.

    What relevance does a Rickshaw puller’s Kid making it to IIT or a ST ranking 50th have to the topic of reservation? Are you trying to say that people other than upper caste people can make it to IIT’s on “Merit”? Excellent point, I am very happy about it; our Country definitely is making progress but these are exceptions my friend, we are talking about the large group of people who do not have this capability or exposure and what can be done to bring them into the social mainstream. I think I know the response that is going through your head and that is what I have been trying to get at!!

    I never made a reference that the Hindu Gods are impure. I don’t think any of my statements can be interpreted that way. Please read my post again. I did not choose to be a Christian; I was born a Christian. If your assumption is that I converted to Christianity because I thought the Hindu Gods are Impure, it is a fantasy that exists in your mind. I have a great respect for all religions and I have read a lot of religious books. Please stop being parochial and for a moment put yourself on the other side of the reservation issue and see if it makes sense.

    Mr. Non Brahmin Hindu, a very excellent and extremist solution!! You make me so proud of being an Indian!

    Ms. Lakshmi,

    I would like to clarify that I am not saying that all people who oppose reservation are in favor of discrimination. I can understand why people are frustrated especially when they are being asked to bear the burden of the past. The society that exists today in India has the manifestations of a system of caste that was created a long time ago. It is a social evil that needs to be addressed and changed.

    There is a difference between eradicating poverty and eradicating the Caste system, please don’t confuse the two. It is true that a lot of people below the poverty line are people who belong to the backward classes but there are several factors that need to be addressed to eradicate the Caste system. I am happy by your statements that people value talent today and that as a child you did not discriminate. While your comments on being non-judgmental when hiring people sounds good, it is far from true. The Private sector is filled with people of Upper castes; when it comes to promotion and opportunities people of particular castes are favored. Some people (I am not saying all, all it takes is a few) believe it is right because they think it is their way of getting back at the reservation system. This is how the vicious cycle continues. People whom you see as abusing the system by misusing reservation are not truly misusing it. Only when all organizations have equal representation from all sections of society will this issue get resolved. If it means some people being rich from a backward class getting richer by using the system, I believe it is fair. This is how the upper caste has exploited the system for such a long time. I know two wrongs don’t make a right, tell me a better way? Some sections of the backward castes need to advance to the uppermost levels of the society if there needs to be any kind of a balance in terms of caste. I believe this system of reservation is getting us towards this goal. I only hope that people keep their roots in mind when they advance to higher levels, it will ensure a faster end to this reservation system.

    Peace.

    ReplyDelete
  23. -- Raj, please take all our seats. You want money? Sure! Our women? Well, that's not our call dude, you have to ask them.

    Mr. Barber, I had no intention of getting directly offensive at anybody but your statements leave me little choice.

    OUR Seats? OUR Women? You said in one of your earlier posts you are an OBC yourself? Am I too assume this statement is not casteist!! Haha. You are a funny man.

    You think that standing on the other side of the reservation issue is going to get everybody in this society to see you as a Forward Caste and hence superior. Is that what you are trying to achieve??

    OR you feel that since you have made it to IIT in the general category, reservation to OBC's is somehow going to dilute your degree in the future or is it *Follow the Junta* effect. I sense a big dissonance in you in terms of understanding who you really are.

    Grow up my friend and realise that the people who are in favor of reservation are speaking for you and your family too.

    ReplyDelete
  24. You said in one of your earlier posts you are an OBC yourself?

    I am not even human, I am a barbarian.

    So, in other words if a Dalit goes to IIT on his own merit, he is trying to act like a forward caste?

    I don't need anyone to speak for me. That is the difference between you and me. You need a crutch, despite your father being an engineer you applied through the quota.

    Aren't you ashamed of yourself? Kuch to sharm kar yaar! Jeez!

    ReplyDelete
  25. Mr Barber,

    I will spare you the agony of having to respond again.

    Please read your posts again and stop making offensive statements to make yourself feel better.

    You are a young man and I can understand the anger. How about using it more constructively ??

    Peace.

    ReplyDelete
  26. Why do I need to read my own posts again? I know what my views are.

    When you say I am angry, you sound like Jeff Bridges in Big Lebowski. Of course, my only response is: I am calmer than you are!

    ReplyDelete
  27. It surprises me that so many educated people are arguing based on their identity (forward, backward castes etc) and not making their identity based on their thoughts. So people who have taken benefits of reservation are fighting for it and vice versa. When we are selfish and fight for a scenario which benefits us individually, no common good can be achieved. Till our castes dictate our thoughts, casteless society will be a pipedream.

    My Basic Understanding:
    No one can argue against that there have been atrocities on lower castes and resulting loss of opportunity. No one can argue that reservation is anything more than a blunt tool that tries to drive equality sacrificing merit. No one can argue that the benefits of reservations are wrongly flowing to the top layers of backward castes who do not need them. Most of all, no one can argue that the current definition of backward / forward, statistics is not flawed.

    So we have a problem and a flawed solution of reservation being suggested. The flawed solution is being fought for by the people who are wrongly benefited by them and contested against by people who feel that they will get the wrong side of stick. So much selfish agenda is present on both sides that a logical debate is out of question.

    Meanwhile, the people who are really supposed to get benefited (the uneducated real downtrodden lower caste) is nowhere in the picture because they do not have access to their own rights. These people are the ones, I can say with some conviction, only a few of us in the forum might have seen. They are the ones who aren’t educated, who clean toilets in small towns where flush is still not available (a significant proportion), who skin the dead animals, sweep the streets and so on and so forth. I salute them as they are hard working and most of us would not survive without them. These are the ones who need access to opportunities. And it is our failure that they still are a significant proportion of our population.

    So do these people need reservations in IITs / IIMs / private sector jobs? I hazard a guess that they need first of all livelihood, basic education and health services more than reservations in IIT / IIM cause just survival is a big deal here.

    So why is there a debate on what should be done and what not when things are so commonsensical. Two factors: a privileged class among the downtrodden and political motivation.

    The privileged class (or the creamy layer) has exploited a welfare scheme and over a period of time has become as vocal or even more than the forward class. This group is actually a barrier for the real backward to access opportunity.

    Secondly, there is a huge vote bank of the real downtrodden as described above. However, that group (because they are not educated and poor) go with anyone who offer them short term benefit (cement on their streets, a couple of bulbs in their areas, a blanket or may be even 5 kg of rice). Because this group still believes in caste, politicians need a privileged class of their caste to identify with them and get their votes. And the creamy layer is that class. That is why there is such a vociferous opposition to removal of creamy layer from reservation.

    Solution is very simple but next to impossible to implement given the dynamics and self-interest of different groups. It is as simple as defining a measurement of backwardness (financial condition is the primary driver for that) and channeling funds and opportunity to real backward people.

    I sincerely hope that we have a logical discussion on the subject devoid of any personal agendas. More importantly some execution based on the logical discussion will at least start to solve the problem.

    Given the complexity and historical baggage I have little faith that any optimal solution will ever be implemented. One needs almost a divine effort to be totally fair and carry it through such a diverse country as ours. The polarization of masses and the compulsion to be in power in a democracy that gives a group only 5 years to show the result will make it all the more difficult to implement a fair solution.

    I congratulate and thank you if you have read it till here. Thanks for the bandwidth.

    Seeing that one’s identity is a prime driver of one’s argument in this forum let me disclose mine. I belong to supposedly the most forward caste. In reality, many members of this caste live below poverty line without access to education or healthcare. I come from a rural background / hindi medium education and my father was not an engineer. I have been educated in one of the IIMs (which I think is the best school in the world :)). I have been denied many opportunities that went to lower-performing, more-wealthy, having better access to education candidates just because of our castes.

    And finally, I hope we all see a fair and casteless India in our lifetime.

    ReplyDelete
  28. Rashmi - Excellent post! You've inspired me to write something about this BITS reservation issue on my blog as well (http://chennaitochicago.blogspot.com/2006/06/bits-and-pieces-reservation-comes-to.html if you're interested).

    All I can say is that this whole reservation fracas seems politically motivated rather than any real intention to help backward classes.

    ReplyDelete
  29. Solution is very simple but next to impossible to implement given the dynamics and self-interest of different groups.

    Actually the solution is simpler than you think and is highly possible.

    We need more opening up of the economy. Politicians almost grudgingly opened up our economy in 1991, faced with a BoP crisis and a threat from IMF.

    Targetted development of the so called underprivileged never works. We have been trying it for 60 years just like other third world economies.

    ReplyDelete
  30. Nomadic Thoughts,

    An excellent post. Fully agree with you on a lot of your views.

    It is very difficult to disassociate identity for purposes of argument. Existence is meaningless without an identity and understanding of "self".

    Recognition of the fact that we are driven more by self-interest is probably the first step towards a solution and also in identifying the cause of the problem.

    If every person *truly* recognizes Caste as a social evil the pipe dream of a casteless society may not be out of reach.

    ReplyDelete
  31. Indian orthodox Brahmins & their slaves Present All Over Indian System Will Never Allow the Development of the Rest Indians i.e OBC/SC/ST/Rest Whose Population Is Over 85% of India - Come What May ! B/c Brahmins/their Slaves -- Don't Even Consider OBC/SC/ST/ REST INDIANS - Humans !So ------:---

    The Permanent Solution I Think Is that :- Divide India Into Small Nations On Caste Lines, E.g. One Country For Brahmins, One for Upper Castes, One for OBC/SC/ST/ Rest -- On the Basis of Population of the Caste. Every Caste Will Have 100% Reservation In their Respective Country -- So No Fighting Any More & All Will Develop. A Non Indian Commission of United Nations should be Formed Under ChairManShip of It's Chief Koffi Anan --- to Divid India, to Maintain Impartiality, In Light of Historical Facts of Over 3000yrs, With No India In High Power Commission to Avoid Partiality. B/c In Present India Brahmins & Upper Castes Manage to Corners All Resources Meant for All Indians (OBC/SC/ST/REST INDIANS)- that's Why Brahmins/Upper Castes are Happy In Present India. OBC/SC/ST/Rest are Not Socially & Educationally Backward By - Choice - BUT - B/c Brahmins & their Slaves In Power have Kept them So - By Force & Conspiracy Since Over 3000yrs Particularly 1947 Onwards !

    ----- Let's Face the India's Ground Level Realities/Truths the Way they Are & Go For the Final Solution that Is Once & For All !!!

    --- So Rashmi Bansal What's Your Reaction ???

    --- Non-Brahman Hindu ! By For NOW !!!!!!!!!!

    ReplyDelete
  32. Dear Mr. Raj,
    Apart from Shiv and Parvathi, Does Jesus also divide people on caste basis? If you were a born christian, How did you call yourself backward (AND misuse two seats?)? Are there caste-divisions in Christianity too?

    As an EDUCATED person, you should be able to see through the arguments of our politicians. Just inclusion of a few 100 people of OBCs into the higher education system among millions of them won't improve the conditions of millions of them.

    I too am a non-Brahmin Hindu. Why is this debate often looked upon as a Brahmin (anti-quota) VS non-Brahmin (Pro-Quota)?. If a community has excelled in all fields, and is in top, we should look as to how they have been able to do it and try to replicate across all the other communities and fields.

    If you cannot go up, don't try to bring down those who have gone up. The mass exodus of so called "high-class" people from TN and the way they have been excelling in US and other countries speak how poor we have executed our systems here which drives people from here and encourages flight of people and capital.

    Why isn't it possible to strengthen the primary education? Why do you give up on it? It is definitely possible, if funds collected for education cess is properly used for it, instead of using it for implementation of whims and fancies of minions like Arjun Singh, Meira Kumar.

    On top of this, reservation in private sectors!!! This country is definitely fed to dogs in bits and pieces!!!

    Why don't you come back to India? You will get a "reserved" job in PSUs or Govt department. If everything, right from college seat to job is reserved for you, will you be motivated to work for it??!!!!

    ReplyDelete
  33. Three excellent articles worth reading for the likes of Mr. Raj and for all people:

    http://ia.rediff.com/news/2006/jun/09guest.htm

    http://www.deeshaa.org/2006/06/11/565/#more-565

    http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/2006/06/12/stories/2006061200040800.htm

    Cheers,
    Venkat.

    ReplyDelete
  34. Mr. Venkat,

    Read the articles in your post.

    Prof Gopinath makes an interesting argument by terming reservation as a “Charity” and “Crutch” and then concluding with the evils of the Caste system. It is sad to see people lose perspective when making an argument. Why do you think some OBC’s are against reservation? Do you think they have the common good of the country or the OBC’s in mind? They are just scared that they are going to be ostracized by becoming a part of the SC/ST Band wagon. Look at the tone of his article and the language, do you get the impression that “he” doesn’t need reservation or the “OBC’s” don’t need reservation??

    Neera in the other article makes an interesting point too. She is trying to bring a quick end to her humiliation of being an ST. Everyone who has already used the system would be very happy to completely get rid of the reservation system as they have already benefited from it and if the Caste system were “eradicated” their children would not have to face oppression and their place in a “Class” based system would be secure. They feel “They” have reached a point where they can survive without crutches. Sad that this is not how this problem is going to be resolved. They are making a wrong assumption; “End of reservation” = “End of Caste System”. It would be wonderful if this were true. The social inequalities that exist today are not going to be normalized by killing the reservation system.

    Professor Inderesan’s article is hilarious at best. China is not a fractured society like ours. We have a multitude of languages, religions and to top it all a “Caste” system that divide our country immensely. As a nation they are far more united than we are. Doing a comparison on something that has a social and cultural impact is sad coming from a person like him. He talks about how merit system is going to be killed and the talented are going to suffer. What truly is talent and merit?? Is it a measure of how well you do in school? (Tell that to Bill Gates and Larry Ellison!!) If you have what it takes to succeed in life, you will. Reservation is a means of exposing the “talent” in people who would otherwise not be able to come into the social mainstream. Their “Talent” may not be comparable to the so-called “Talent/merit” of the others. In the long run they bring about an exposure of opportunities to people who would otherwise have no clue on how to come out of their misery. True it would be difficult for some of them to cope up with others but that is not a reason to judge the efficacy of the system. How about helping them succeed for a change?? How many people of the “Underprivileged class” has Professor Inderesan helped succeed? How many of them do you think you are going to help change?

    How many people in the forum are aware of what the majority of the IITians are doing today in life? What percentages of them are still associated to engineering? How many of them are in the IT industry writing code? Take a look inside Infosys or i2 Technologies! How about addressing this failure of the "merit" system rather than targeting the reservation system?

    Talent and merit are very relativistic. Success in life is purely relativistic too.

    The very idea that some rich people are using reservation disgusts most of you. The whole idea of the caste system disgusts me. Certain groups of people are still doing the same demeaning work just because of their caste of birth while the society stands around them talking about “merit”!!

    Your statement of flight of people is very shortsighted. Why do you think there is an IT boom in India? Intelligent Marketing done by Infosys, Wipro and other IT companies!!! It’s the people who migrated outside who did the “actual” marketing. Sometimes what looks wrong in the short term may actually end up being good in the long term.

    Primary Education is necessary but that will take a long time in removing the caste system. Reservation speeds up this process.

    ReplyDelete
  35. Raj,

    You are missing the whole point here.

    Whether the institutes are good, whether merit is relative or whether IIT graduates decide to become rock guitarists has no relevance in this debate.

    The point is, people DESIRE IIT seats. You did too, didn't you? But you STOLE the seat.

    Compare this to, money is desired by folks. Now, many people believe money is bad (Can't buy me love etc.). Now, would that make a valid reason for you to steal my money?

    Reservations are nothing but government sanctioned bank robbery.

    IF YOU WANT A F'ING SEAT, YOU MUST COMPETE!

    ReplyDelete
  36. Mr Barber,

    Your whole logic of the irrelevance of merit being relative or IIT grads becoming Rock guitarists is pathetic. We are talking about the so claimed "Death of merit" with reservation. IIT Grads becoming Rock Guitarists (using a similar logic) can be seen as death of merit because somebody who is serious about engineering is losing out studying engineering.

    Your logic on money is bad and hence would I be right stealing your money confounds me!!! Seriously, Are you on crack???

    Finally, When talking about an issue please avoid getting personal. Doesnt take me any time to retaliate with references to your Mother etc...

    ReplyDelete
  37. My logic is bad and I suppose you invented calculus? You are clearly not even capable of getting the essence of my arguments.

    Simple question, did you deserve the IIT seat? If so, why? After 4 years at IIT, why couldn't you compete for a seat in the IIM?

    ReplyDelete
  38. IF there is an ESSENCE in your argument. I will let somebody else comment on that.

    After 4 big posts, if the only thing that bothers you is if I deserved a seat, you have missed the whole point of the conversation.

    Nice talking to you.

    ReplyDelete
  39. Quite obviously the big posts are confusing matters.

    What is your most fundamental argument for reservations? Please be succinct.

    ReplyDelete
  40. http://emotionalzombie.blogspot.com/

    "No! Let’s join the self-proclaimed snobs protesting with slogans “Remember your place”, polishing shoes and cleaning premises? Let’s pretend not to see it at all! Damn Reservations!"

    ReplyDelete
  41. Mr. Raj,
    You have missed the whole point of OUR argument. Our question is - Did you deserve the seat(s) (being the son of a person who has already claimed the reservation?).
    You already exploited one seat, and then went on to exploit another. You obviously belonged to the creamy layer and even then exploited the quota system. I know umpteen no. of people who are in creamy layer (far rich that me or even you) but using quotas. WERE QUOTAS MEANT FOR THEM? I know a girl, who (mis)used quota for BE and then for an IIM seat. The same with her two brothers who misused 2 seats each. Her father is a govt. college professor!!! This is just the tip of the iceberg.
    Just because one is a dalit, one does not become "backward". Economic backwardness is MUCH MORE important than social backwardness.

    Why are you evading questions relevant to you? About Forward/Backward in Christianity and whether you deserved a reserved seat since your father had already used a reserved seat?

    And yes, for GOD's sake, don't talk about Engineers not working as Engineers. It is totally irrelevant to the topic. We are worried about the entry to the IIT Engineering degree (which definitely requires the drive and merit, as has been said in PV Indiresan's article. I can't imagine someone laughing at Indiresan!!) rather than what they do later.

    I repeat again, If you cannot raise up, don' pull down those who have already risen! Standards of institutions should always increase, but no decrease!

    ReplyDelete
  42. Indian orthodox Brahmins & their Upper Caste slaves Present All Over Indian System Will Never Allow the Development of the Rest Indians i.e OBC/SC/ST/Rest Whose Population Is Over 85% of India - Come What May ! B/c Brahmins/their Slaves -- Don't Even Consider OBC/SC/ST/ REST INDIANS - Humans ! So :------

    The Permanent Solution I Think Is that :- Divide India Into Small Nations On Caste Lines, E.g. One Country For Brahmins, One for Upper Castes, One for OBC/SC/ST/ Rest -- On the Basis of Population of the Caste. Every Caste Will Have 100% Reservation In their Respective Country -- So No Fighting Any More & All Will Develop. A Non Indian High Power Commission of United Nations should be Formed Under ChairManShip of It's Chief Koffi Anan --- to Divid India Into Small Nations on Caste Lines , & to Maintain Impartiality, In Light of Historical Facts of Over 3000yrs, With No India In High Power Commission to Avoid Partiality. B/c In Present India Brahmins & Upper Castes Manage to Corners All Resources Meant for All Indians (OBC/SC/ST/REST INDIANS)- that's Why Brahmins/Upper Castes are Happy In Present India. OBC/SC/ST/Rest are Not Socially & Educationally Backward By - Choice - BUT - B/c Brahmins & their Slaves In Power have Kept them So - By Force & Conspiracy Since Over 3000yrs Particularly 1947 Onwards !

    ----- Let's Face the India's Ground Level Realities/Truths the Way they Are & Go For the Final Solution that Is Once & For All !!!

    --- So Rashmi Bansal & Rest People Who are Regular on this Blog, What's Your Reaction ???

    --- Non-Brahman Hindu ! SEE My Blog = www.zanjeer.blogspot.com TO know Why I'm Forced to Say So ! By For NOW !!!

    ReplyDelete
  43. Mr Venkat,

    Does selcetive assimilation of information ring a bell?? I dont think there is any answer that will get through. I guess in this case the glass is empty and nobody's home :-)

    All the answers to your questions are there in previous posts assuming you are looking for an answer.

    Nice talking to you too.

    ReplyDelete
  44. --"And yes, for GOD's sake, don't talk about Engineers not working as Engineers. It is totally irrelevant to the topic. We are worried about the entry to the IIT Engineering degree"

    Instead of just repeating what somebody is saying how about using some of the grey matter yourself.
    We are talking about "Lost Opportunity" because of reservation. The so-called talented losing the opportunity because of reservation and that having an economic impact on our country. I am talking about the same "Lost Opportunity" when somebody who graduates from IIT ends up writing code or becomes a rock guitarist. Just because he has a choice("Merit") to do it doesnt make it right when you are talking about the macro-economic impact.

    ReplyDelete
  45. Arguably, if all IITians became rock guitarists (assuming they are even mildly successful in the international arena), the GDP growth of the country would be much higher.

    The point here is the concept of choice. Given a choice, an individual will try to make the most money. Obviously, given free choice, the individuals will actually end up contributing the most to the economy. Yes, some people may make unusual career choices, but that choice is theirs. We don't know atthe time of the entrance what choices they will make. Heck, all students will probably say they want to join government of India as engineer and build big steel plants and dams! What we should do is to give a fiercely competitive exam and let only the sharpest students in. Which is precisely what we are doing with the exception we are letting in some subpar folks.

    The idea that an individual has to subordinate his desire to the goals of the state has roots in communism and the world of islamo-fascism. If you like any of these ideologies, we have nothing to say.

    ReplyDelete
  46. Macro economics quiz:

    An IIT engineer, A, joins ICICI as an investment banker. He pulls in nearly 15 Lakhs in salary and bonuses.

    Another IITian, B, joins the PWD as a civil engineer. He pulls in perhaps 3 lakhs.

    Which of the above contributes more to GDP?

    ReplyDelete
  47. Rashmi's new post "IIT at any cost, or… " addresses this exact question about choice. Please post the same question to her. I will let sombody else take a shot at it this time.

    ReplyDelete
  48. Mr Barber,

    You Crack me up. If given a choice every individual will try to make the most money why would IITian B join PWD and make 3 lakhs. That would totally contradict your previous argument, woudnt it? Make up your mind before you come up with scenarios!!

    ReplyDelete
  49. Funny, isn't it?

    I will tell you what else is funny.

    Perhaps about 300-400 thousand Dalit families, like yours, continue to gobble up these quotas, the easy loans, the land reform benefits etc. for generations. Meanwhile 200 million dalits continue to live in terrible conditions. This is funny because it is so absurd.

    More fun: Your entire argument is based on how your caste worked to your disadvantage etc. etc. But you aren't even Hindu! You were born a Christian! How funny!

    Some more: We, the so called upper-castes read whatever we like at our leisure. Maybe even porn, fun stuff. But you keep poring over our mythology, hoping to find plotholes. This is spine tickling funny man!

    ReplyDelete
  50. Hahaha. You are "One of a Kind", my friend.

    I salute you on your logical reasoning prowess !! My faith in IIT's has been restored.

    Aap Purush hi nahi hoon, Maha purush ho, Maha purush!!

    ReplyDelete
  51. Raj
    I wont respond to all the comments that have been already posted or on the rationale of your or barbarindian's posts.
    Being a student at one of the IIMs i have a sense of the disillusionment that aspiring students feel about the entire reservation scenario. The effort it takes to get into these top institutes is an indication of the high quality of education these institutes have to offer. Shouldnt higher education in our elite institutes be about excellence and achievement. I really dont know whether u revel in ur 'sense of achievement' of having been at IIT and IIM. What i fail to understand is whether higher education in our IITs and IIMs should be about charity in the form of reservations or about aspiring and achieving. Quotas take away from the entire admission process the motivation to excel which is what education is all about. Higher education isnt the 'arena' for administering 'social justice'. Its about upholding quality and merit and recognising achievement.

    The solution would be providing the OBCs the means and the resources to compete on an equal platform with their counterparts in the upper castes.
    Quotas in their present form have failed and the aim at the time of independence would have been to progressively reduce reservations. That the time has come to increase them is in itself an indicator of the failure of the reservation policy.

    ReplyDelete
  52. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

    ReplyDelete
  53. Gaurav,

    I am not sure if you have really read all the posts. Your post would practically take us back one full circle. I will try to be succinct, as my good friend had asked of me.

    You make 3 interesting points:

    “Quotas in their present form have failed and the aim at the time of independence would have been to progressively reduce reservations. That the time has come to increase them is in itself an indicator of the failure of the reservation policy.”

    Has reservation as a policy really failed?? What measure of time is appropriate to make that conclusion?? Why does an increase in reservation indicate a failure, shouldn’t it mean it has been a success especially since they haven’t increased the percentages for one group but are addressing a different group?

    “What i fail to understand is whether higher education in our IITs and IIMs should be about charity in the form of reservations or about aspiring and achieving.”

    Your condescending tone in the post amuses me. What charity are you talking about?? The injustices that you are a beneficiary of; the decades of injustice perpetrated by the higher caste that has resulted in this situation for the lower castes??

    “Higher education isnt the 'arena' for administering 'social justice'.”

    These statements coming from someone studying in an IIM is disconcerting. Why Not?? Why are so many people angry about reservation?? It all comes down to “Potential to make money”.

    If the government decided to take money from the upper caste and distribute it to the lower castes as compensation; that my friend would be charity. If they are forcing people to get more educated that would be a policy decision that empowers the backward. You want them to do this at a different level (Primary education), I believe this is faster.

    ReplyDelete
  54. If the government decided to take money from the upper caste and distribute it to the lower castes as compensation; that my friend would be charity.

    That my friend, would be robbery. Quotas are in fact just that.

    ReplyDelete
  55. Raj,
    u said,
    1. "Has reservation as a policy really failed?? What measure of time is appropriate to make that conclusion?? "
    If five decades of reservation is insufficient to alleviate the disadvantages faced by SCs and STs then surely u arent suggesting we need a couple of centuries! By and large the people who are going to flourish under the current quota regime are the offsprings of those who have already emerged out of the reservation policies of the independence era. There is no distinction under the current law between a group which has already benefited under the reservation umbrella and those which the govt. claims to be helping right now.

    2. Why are so many people angry about reservation?? It all comes down to “Potential to make money”.

    Whats wrong with that?? If i am going to work long hours and struggle my way into an IIM competing with 160,000 candidates i deserve a standard of living which is in proportion to the quality of my efforts. Why should you be judgemental about anyone's quest to make money? In any case why do u or any SC/ST or General category candidate aspire to get into IIM or an IIT?? Your point about people wanting to make money is ridiculous. I will quote Vince Lombardi who said "The quality of a man's life is proportional to his commitment to excellence" ..

    3. You want them to do this at a different level (Primary education), I believe this is faster.

    Since u claim that this is faster and since u have already made the point that sixty years of reservation is inadequate for this purpose i can only ask u as to what period of time do u have in mind!

    ReplyDelete
  56. I said:
    "If the government decided to take money from the upper caste and distribute it to the lower castes as compensation; that my friend would be charity."

    Mr. Barber said....
    That my friend, would be robbery. Quotas are in fact just that.

    Mr Barber,

    If this would be robbery, you are admitting being a descendant of a robber, because that is what precisely happened in the past.

    You never cease to amuse me.

    ReplyDelete
  57. Mr Gaurav,

    All I am going to say in response is that there has been centuries of abuse on people just on the basis of their birth. There was no merit, opportunity or Talent then.

    As much as I would like it, this problem cannot be wished away or resolved in a short period of time.

    I started to write in this group for only one reason. I wanted people to see the other side of reservation and I think that some of them did. There are others, well, there is nothing much I can say to them.

    I also wanted people to realize the psychological propganda of terming this as "Charity". Oppression continues in different forms. I can only be amused by it.

    It has been nice talking to you all.

    Adios, take care and have a good life.

    ReplyDelete
  58. Also please visit this blog if you want to see a different perspective:

    http://emotionalzombie.blogspot.com/

    He has put a lot more thought into reservation than I have.

    ReplyDelete
  59. If you thought Reservations end with admissions in IIT, please read the following from Academics@ IIT Delhi http://www.iitd.ac.in/bsw/academic.htm
    Department Change at IIT .. A student is eligible to apply for change of discipline at the end of first year only provided he/she satisfies the criteria: CGPA for the General Category students greater than or equal to 7.50 and CGHPA for SC/ST category students greater than or equal to 6.50.

    MHRD and the job reservation in private sector supporting UGC Chief must be working hard to set new standards for OBCs.
    Let my country go to sleep, let my country go to sleep .......

    ReplyDelete
  60. Hindustan Times 8th July news carries the following:
    While there have been recent cases of students scoring 90 per cent and not getting into colleges of their choice, two All India Engineering Entrance Examination 2006 candidates who scored six on 100 have been selected for admission in the engineering course of Birla Institute of Technology (BIT), Mesra.

    Rajesh Kisku of West Bengal and Ashok Jambhule of Maharashtra (names changed) will study civil engineering and biotechnology respectively, thanks to the Central Counselling Board (CCB) of the AIEEE. Both belong to the Scheduled Tribe category. They aren't the only ones to benefit from reservation. Others with scores of 7, 10, 11 and 13 will also pursue engineering in this premier institution.

    They've got it made for now but there are many who aren't happy about it. "It is correct. These are facts," says BIT V-C Prof S.K. Mukherjee, blaming it on the CBSE norms. All-India seats are distributed state-wise and the same pattern is adopted while distributing SC/ST category seats. If a reserved category candidate with less marks opts for BIT in the CCB, he gets admission.

    "Such situations are a matter of concern. There should be a minimum cut-off mark," Prof Mukherjee says. On the pattern of the IITs, he says, marks/rank obtained by a candidate in a competitive exam must be linked with marks obtained in a conventional exam.

    What's more, things could get worse. "Reserved category candidates with lesser marks may get admission during the second round of counselling, " the V-C says. "Some 50 reserved category seats are still vacant. And chances are that students who scored 1 or 2 may be considered for admission," says a BIT professor.

    That means candidates who scored 270 would come last in the list of general category candidates granted admission. "It's not fair," says Samrendra, one such candidate. Admission over, the academically weak students find it hard to cope, says a professor of civil engineering.

    ReplyDelete
  61. The devil doctors exposed by the IBN-CNN raise a number of questions?

    Are these doctors meritwallahs or from depressed classes?
    Why the so-called upper caste merit wallahs doctors turned out to be
    devils ? We dont say depressed people cant do it, but till date none
    has been found in this racket.
    This racket clearly shows why the doctors dont want to expand
    medical education ?
    There is huge money in this profession which has become synonymous
    with dalali, anything can be fixed for money?



    The IMA must tell why merit wallahs were found doing this, as it
    feels that they are the upholders of hippocrates oath in this
    country. The IMA itself is is battleground of corruption and sleaze,
    and there are many more skeletons in the cupboard.


    Hacker docs in the dock, IMA promises action

    CNN-IBN
    Posted Saturday , July 29, 2006 at 21:17
    Updated Sunday , July 30, 2006 at 10:59 Email Print
    New Delhi: After CNN-IBN and DIG exposed doctors who cut off
    beggars' limbs for a price to help the beggar mafia the Indian
    Medical Association (IMA) has promised to prosecute the erring
    doctors.


    Dr Ajay Kumar, National President Elect of the Indian Medical
    Association has said that the doctors will be arrested immediately.


    "If they are registered with the IMA then their medical license will
    be immediately suspended," he said.

    The police have already taken Dr P K Bansal for questioning. He runs
    a clinic named Orthomat in Delhi's Old Rajinder Nagar locality.


    Dr Bansal had agreed to amputate the limbs of a beggar despite
    knowing that the law prohibits amputation by will.


    Another doctor, Ghaziabad-based Ajay Agarwal took money to amputate
    healthy limbs of a DIG investigator who posed as a prospective
    beggar.


    People entered Agarwal's house in Ghaziabad and demanded action
    against the erring doctor.


    In a sting operation, a team of CNN-IBN reporters exposed
    orthopaedic surgeon Ajay Agarwal's unethical practice.


    Dr Agarwal put the fake beggar through a series of medical tests at
    his nursing home.


    The surgeon pocketed Rs 4,000 as advance for the operation from the
    team while also giving advice on how the amputation could be made to
    look legal.


    When CNN-IBN reached Dr Ajay Agarwal at the Noida Civil Hospital,
    the cameraperson was pushed and abused.


    It was in fact Dr Ajay Agarwal who had referred Dr P K Bansal to the
    investigative team as part of amputation nexus.


    Dr Ajay Agarwal is absconding and the police are trying to track him
    down.

    CNN-IBN had also exposed Dr Arvind Agarwal of Bareilly.


    Dr Agarwal, who is also the Secretary of the Orthopaedic Association
    of Bareilly is now absconding.


    His wife says he has not returned since Saturday afternoon.


    When questioned about Dr Agarwal, his wife, Dr Neera Agarwal
    said,"If he has not come then how can I tell you?"


    The police are now looking out for him. The Senior Superintendent of
    Police (SSP), Bareilly, Anand Swaroop said, "We are looking for him
    and have contacted IMA for cooperation."

    ReplyDelete
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  64. Hi Nice Blog .If you are starting out in search engine optimization, there are a few terms and phrases you will need to understand. Here is a list of the most common words and phrases associated with seo india.

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  66. Mr Raj,

    I agree with many of your points. But here's something I'd like you to think about. Now the "aim" of these reservations are to help those who really need to be uplifted right? The people who are literally on the streets doing menial jobs because that's what their families have been doing for generation?

    Now I have a question for you. How is reservation in IIT's going to help THESE people, when these people don't even attend primary school?? I agree we need reservation but the level at which reservation is applied should be at the lower levels. Lower caste/income people should be encouraged to get through entire of school. A person from a lower caste who completes school will be as competent as a higher caste person going through the same process of learning.

    This is what people question when it comes to reservation in the IITs. They question how these reservations help the people who they are intended for.

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