While all of India has been busy discussing who is sniffing which white powder, Mr Arjun Singh has injected the second dose of his lethal 'reservation' cocktail into the Indian education system.
The Indian Express on Sunday dt Jun 4 2006 reported :
On May 29, the very day the Supreme Court observed that quotas can divide the nation and asked the Government to explain its rationale behind the 27% OBC quotas, HRD Minister Arjun Singh further tightened the quota screws on the higher-education sector, both public and private.
In a note prepared that day for the Cabinet, his Ministry has proposed a legislation with provisions that give the Government unprecedented power not only to impose quotas in over 100 “deemed universities” over and above 32 Central institutions but also to regulate their fees, selection procedure—and even take punitive action.
So not just IITs, IIMs and AIIMS, the institutions which are brought into the 27% OBC quota net include Birla Institute of Technology and Science, Pilani; Manipal Academy of Higher Education; Pune’s Symbiosis International Education Centre and the Tata Institute of Social Sciences.
This was, of course the original intention of the 93rd constitutional amendment. To give the government control over all educational institutes - not just publicly funded ones. The 'Education in India' (Prayatna) blog has summarised the sequence of events beautifully, so I shall merely reproduce what's been written there:
The Supreme Court delivered an unanimous judgement by 7 judges on August 12, 2005 in the case of P.A. Inamdar & Ors. vs. State of Maharashtra & Ors.declaring that the State can't impose its reservation policy on minority and non-minority unaided private colleges, including professional colleges.
Politicians ko yeh hazam nahin hua.
The Minister for Human Resource Development, Arjun Singh, drafted and piloted the 104th Constitution Amendment Bill which was passed in the Lok Sabha on December 21st with 379 votes in favour and one vote against and one abstaining. The Rajya Sabha also passed it on December 22nd with 172 votes in favour and only two against.
Only minority education institutions were kept out of the purview of the bill - and that was the only aspect of the bill which the BJP opposed.
According to the Constitution 93rd amendment Act
"(5) Nothing in this article or in sub-clause (g) of clause (1) of article 19 shall prevent the State from making any special provision, by law, for the advancement of any socially and educationally backward classes of citizens or for the Scheduled Castes or the Scheduled Tribes in so far as such special provisions relate to their admission to educational institutions including private educational institutions, whether aided or unaided by the State, other than the minority educational institutions referred to in clause (1) of article 30."
Prayatna further notes
Article 15 of the constitution, as it was originally framed in 1950, stated the following and did not include the term "admission to educational institutions".
15. Prohibition of discrimination on grounds of religion, race, caste, sex or place of birth.
- The State shall not discriminate against any citizen on grounds only of religion, race, caste, sex, place of birth or any of them.
No citizen shall, on grounds only of religion, race, caste, sex, place of birth or any of them, be subject to any disability, liability, restriction or condition with regard to
(a) access to shops, public restaurants, hotels and places of public entertainment; or
(b) the use of wells, tanks, bathing ghats, roads and places of public resort maintained wholly or partly out of State funds or dedicated to the use of the general public.
Nothing in this article shall prevent the State from making any special provision for women and children.
Article 15 was first amended by the the Constitution (First Amendment) Act, 1951 enacted on June 18, 1951. While this Amendment mentions "educational advancement", it does not use the term "admission to educational institutions" either.
So basically, there is no compulsion for anyone to introduce 'quotas' and that too based on the Mandal Commission definition of OBC.
It is politicians who redefined and subverted the idea of 'educational advancement' into admission into graduate and post graduate courses by reservation.
And I have no idea why BITS Pilani, which so far has had 0% reservation, should accept this kind of dispensation. Surely it infringes on their basic Constitutional rights - although I am no legal expert to be able to pinpoint exactly.
Watch out here we come...
Among the key provisions of the proposed Bill, titled Central Educational Institutions (Reservation of Seats and Regulation of Admission and Fee) Bill, 2006 : (as per Express on Sunday)
There will be a “differential fee structure” for SC/ ST/ OBC students to make “reservation a meaningful reality.”
There are alternate means to fulfil this goal such as scholarships, low or zero interest loans - as is done in other countries. Because if these institutes start making losses because the government is fixing their fee structure, unlike IITs and IIMs they can't simply throw up their hands and ask the Centre for 'more funds'. Or can they?
The Government can, "by order, direct any Central Educational Institution to increase the number of seats in each branch or faculty," to protect the number of seats available for general students.
Again, who will bear the cost of such an expansion? BITS for example has just setup a new campus in Goa. And plans another in Hyderabad in 2007. Does that count? And if they refuse to increase seats in Pilani, isn't it their prerogative??
Unaided institutions deemed to be universities shall make admissions in “a fair and transparent manner,” on the basis of qualifying examinations prescribed by UGC.
BITS is the first institute in India to have an online exam - BITSAT. Now I suppose that will have to be scrapped?
I asked a BITS Pilani student for a reaction and here's what he had to say:
A majority of my friends are shocked by the news ( that the much-protested reservations are going to be implemented in BITS as well). The reason is that admission into our insti. is *purely* on the basis of merit- caste plays absolutely no role.
So all of us were of the opinion that if the government cant force us to have quotas for SC/ST's, then they can't push us into introducing reservations for OBCs etc. This arm-twisting by the Govt. is resented by the students (I do not know the management's opinion ).
Quite a few were secretly hoping that quotas be implemented in IITs (as I've said earlier: all this while we were thinking that we were immune )-so that the quality of IITs decline, and we become the undisputed #1 college in the country.
Let's not start squabbling over that last statement. Because there you have it - nobody is going to 'escape' Mr Arjun Singh's prescription for social justice. Can Indian education survive his overdose or will it prove fatal? The outlook is looking pretty bleak!
I guess it is time for some extreme RDB level steps. Rational, logic, protests, petition, hartal, immolation and hunger strike all failed. Who needs funds for the "project"?
ReplyDeleteRashmi,
ReplyDeleteThanx for visiting my blog. I have mailed in your yahoo ID showing my willingness to get the blog published in JAM MAG. Do let me know if you are OK with it.
PC
I think it is obvious but just clarify that above comment was not serious, though sadly I can't say it was in jest either.
ReplyDeleteExpect a flight of capital and schools out of the country. It is the swinging 80s again, huge imbalances, precarious currency situation, ridiculous budget.
ReplyDeleteI guess they just have to increase the spendings in welfare ponzi schemes a little bit before our forex reserves run dry.
I do not rule out a full scale civil strife, remember the party in center is a specialist in causing riots.
By the way, they are actively stifling the voice of protest. People were wondering what happened to the Engineering students?
ReplyDeletehttp://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_1714017,001302220000.htm
The reason is very simple. Till the 80's it was easy to create a smokescreen by hiding data. It is no longer possible in the days of info age, as blogger realitycheck points out and remains optimistic about.
We are heading towards emergency folks. Fill your liquor cabinets and rent DVDs. Gonna be a fun indoor family picnic.
Mr. Raj,
ReplyDeletePlease make up your mind, are we Jews or are we Nazis? Kancha Ilaiah and most dalit sites (dalitvoice.org, dalitstan.org, countercurrents.org) tend to think we are Jews.
There are several plot holes in your script. For instance, how did sending you to IIT help the poor woman who was being hassled? You scrammed from the country at the very first opportunity, nothing wrong with that, but there is a severe disconnect between problem and remedy, don't you think?
Also, while your question-answer format is sort of fascinating, you seem to have answered most of the questions yourself, giving us little room for improvisation.
Significant logical fallacy: if 10 lakh upper-caste shouldn't care for a mere 10,000 seats which they couldn't get anyway, why are 200 million dalits clamoring for them?
You don't mention whether you are a Dalit or an OBC. If you are Dalit, you really don't make much sense. This whole fiasco is about OBC reservations. I would simply sit on the sidelines till the private sector issue came up.
Lastly, pulling a mere six figure salary, that too for a IIT/IIM alumnus, is not really worth writing home about, especially when you don't do your alma maters proud by letting everyone at your work know which institutes you went to.
Return of Quota Raj and Mr. raj supporting it too LOL!
ReplyDeleteAre we walking back to 70's and 80's? The return of quota raj system? will our growth rates slip back to the "much talked Hindu rate of growth?"
Will these reservations affect the macro-economic parameters? Any study done by any non-governmental institution could help us clarify this!
As per Mr. Raj's own statement, his father used reservation, but he has (mis)used them twice, once for IIT and then for IIM again. I know many such people who have used reservations for more than 2 generations and more than 2 times. *SICK* system and *SICK* peopel who misuse it. !
Flight of talent and capital, as said by another friend above, is inevitable! Indian Commies will be the happiest on Earth, since no MNC will want to invest in a country, which does not encourage merit vis-a-vis caste.
ON TOP of all this, Quotas in Private Sectors! Is this country being fed to dogs in bits and pieces?!!!
Rashmi, What are the steps taken by Alumni Associations of IITs/IIMs and other such institutions of excellence? Shouldn't they send strong signals to the centre that they may not invest here if such quotas are implemented here?!!
Raj (and pro-quota band),
ReplyDeleteMost people who support reservations see caste-based quotas as an easy way of delivering social justice. Lets get two things straight here before
I get into picking loopholes in your argument - one, people are not debating reservations per se but the parameter (caste-based)and nature of institutions (of higher education)in which they are set to get implemented. Many of us believe that quotas, if at all, should go to the needy, not to someone just basis his caste. And i have seen enough pampered SC/STs in my life to believe that backward class=socially deprived=needy is a very flawed equation.
Second, more fundamentally, if you have a problem of unequal initial
endowments, I would like to believe the solution lies in 'positive empowerment' in terms of solid primary education, eradication of child labour, etc. As affirmative actions, sure reservations is 'quick-shot'while the others are more long-term but its easy to see which option is more sustainable.
Imagine you have two kids starting a 100m race and one of them has a
broken leg: its easy to see that the situation is not 'fair' on the kid with the broken leg. Does the solution lie in fixing that broken leg, or in saying that the poor kid wins if he can run 20m in the same time that the other runs 100? Yes you are compromising on the very spirit of competitive sport, you are setting a wrong example (others with a broken leg will not have an incentive to get it fixed), you are hiding a wide-spread problem (the govt will no longer feel they need to do
something about this problem of broken legs...like providing healthcare)and you are making the poor kid believe he is in the right profession with a broken leg, when he clearly isn't. Makes sense?
If a big proportion of OBCs are still very backward and indeed need support why are we not asking each State govt for a report-card on primary education: why can't we have timelines for 100% literacy then! Politicians can only impose rules is it, accountability is for others!
And who would benefit from reservations in institutes of higher education? The really needy "unpaadh" OBC or the educated, much-better-off OBC?
A report by the Parliamentary Committee on the Welfare of SCs & STs: Between 1995 & 2000, 50% of seats reserved for the SCs were filled (33% for STs)for the undergraduate level at the Delhi University. The rest were empty. So where should the focus be - in quotas in higher edu or somewhere else?
More loopholes now specifically on your points...I'm getting really late for lunch but I don't mind-
1. "Level playing Field for all Castes": does level playing field mean equal opportunities or equal no of seats? you decide.
2. " About 10000 people get into IITs. Assuming there is no reservation a person who doesn’t get into IIT has nothing to blame. You shrink this number to say 9000 and 10 lakh people think that a grave injustice is done to them because they would have been part of the 1000.": Your nos are not only illustrative, they are way off the mark. You are talking about 10000 becoming 5000 here (after all reservations), not 9000: and 10 lakh people have every right to believe they could have been part of that 5000: there is a big talent-opportunities gap in our country, and we're making it much worse!
3. "Lower Caste women are mistreated in front of their spouses in villages....If you want to solve the problem address the basic issues, then nobody would need a reservation."
Precisely...so you tell me what the basic issue is!
4. "I don’t think I would have even been aware of these opportunities if it wasn’t for my Father who benefited from reservation by going to an Engineering college...": so you are no longer backward see...so why should you or your kids be also given reservations? Tell this to our politicians please.
Don't take this personally pls...you're a fellow WIMWIan afterall; only I feel v strongly abt this issue...this is pure vote-bank politics, why can't you see that?
Reservation makes me sick. I am aspiring to study in the IIT and belonging to the higher castes makes my job more difficult. But I believe I can get in with 50 % reservation as well but what about those who belong to higher castes but cannot afford any coaching classes for JEE or CAT or anything. And now even BITS is coming under the reservation game.
ReplyDeleteSome advice to Mr. Raj :
Reservation was not meant for you as you were already a part of the 'creamy layer'. That is why reservation should be removed forever because those who need it don't get it and those who don't deserve itget the most of it. Also about the injustice to women, how in the world would reservation help their cause?
Hi Rashmi, I have a question. Why is the quota for OBC 27%?and why 22.5 for the sc/st? How did they arrive at those figures? Just a statistical confusion, thought you would know.
ReplyDeletesome after thoughts:
ReplyDeletequoting Mr.Raj:
" Reservation is a way of paying back for the years of oppression by giving exposure to
Opportunities and Environment, "
I think this means that reservation is a form of revenge. Dr.Ambedkar never wanted this to happen. He wanted reservation to be for a limited period in which a generation of the people of lower castes be uplifted so that their future generations do not suffer. He also did not want people of higher castes to be treated unjustly because of reservation.
Oh..But Dr. B.R.Ambedkar is already a villain for many people!!
ReplyDelete;))
Hi Raj,
ReplyDelete1st question: Did you also benefit from reservations after your father had already done so? Did you use the quota for your post graduation, i.e. IIM also?
If yes, then is it fair to general category students who worked as hard or even harder than you did?
2nd: If you come back to India, then will your children also avail of the quota benefits? If that were to be the case, will it be fair to other children who studied harder and were a few percentage points above yours? (They may or may not be as intelligent as your child but that is a different point..after all, we need some entry criteria for higher education/job, etc. Merit is not just IQ, but also hard work, discipline, presentation in exams, etc. Coaching can help you get to the merit list but not by itself.)
You seem to think that all the people who oppose reservations are hell-bent on suppressing the lower castes. Sorry, we are not like that. We feel anguished when Dalit women are paraded naked, when Dalit children are not allowed to drink water from the same vessel as other kids. We do want everybody to have good primary and secondary education, to be able to realise their potential and be successful in life. The only thing we disagree with the government is on the means, not the end.
Most of us in the younger generation of upper castes who live in the cities have played with children of all communities, shared tiffin with them in school without bothering to find out what their great-grandfather did. When we interview candidates for a job, we look at their qualifications and experience as well as communication skills, not their surnames or caste or creed. One fine day, your friend whose caste you never cared about and who also went to private coaching classes gets a medical seat for 92% whereas you with the same 92% has to make do with a B.Sc. seat. How would you feel? Would you think about 16th century atrocities or the present day? It is this fact that is causing the stir against reservations. Had the government used the money for subsidising quotas to institute an economic aid package and special coaching facilities for the poor/rural/backward people, nobody would be complaining.
Q1. Should second-generaion or third-generation SC/SCT/NT/OBC candidates be allowed to avail of quotas?
Q2. If quota is allowed upto the bachelor's level, why do we need it for post-graduation?
Q3. If quota is allowed even at the Master's level, do we need it for private sector jobs/PhDs? After all, an Egg./medical/MBA degree should already place you at an advantage in the job market vis-a-vis B.Sc/BCom/BA grads, shouldn't it?
Q4. If a person has availed of quota at an entry level job citing discrimination as the reason he/she cannot compete in the open field, will he/she also cite discrimination as an excuse for promotions? How far will this thing go? Tomorrow, the government might say - Oh, there aren't enough numbers of SC/ST/OBC managers and CEOs, so we need reservation there, too!
Q5. Let me finally tell you one thing about the current city-bred young person. These people will respect anyone who has the talent and the grit to come up in life, no matter what his/her caste. Many of them are going in for intercaste love marriages against their orthodox parents' wishes. Unfortunately, rural areas are far behind. This city-bred guy is going to resent it when a person with lesser academic scores gets the same position, not because he thinks his caste is superior to the other, but because he feels he/she is more deserving. Slowly, the reserved category person may start feeling alienated among his/her peers, develop an inferiority complex and feel discriminated against, bringing the whole thing full circle. This will lead to a prejudice against the reserved category in general, no matter how deserving/smart/hardworking they are. And no government or law can stop prejudice.
Rashmi, sorry for the long comment on your blog. It is my maiden comment, I think, on what is a very informative and enjoyable series of writings:).
Mr. Raj is providing a rare insight into Dalit minds. He is severely conflicted. There are parts in his own script that are clearly at odds with his logical faculty. Therefore he has built a defense mechanism. Anything that can not be explained away must be casteist.
ReplyDeleteDon't tell him that last year a Rickshaw puller's kid made it to IIT. His brother will probably make it next year. Don't ever mention that several farmers' kids, poor kids from Patwatoli also achieved the same feat. A tea stall owner's son was ranked 34th in this year's civil services exam. Perhaps the most amazing feat was that of Anantlal Tudu, otherwise from a community officially listed as ST, he has ranked 50th in this year's JEE. His father thinks he is going to ITI!
If you tell him these things, he will get seriously troubled because this was outside of the syllabus carefully prepared for him and rubbed into his brains by the local Padre. He will have to run back for more mantra.
See, cheating was officially sanctioned by Shiv-Parvati. So who are we to oppose reservations? Our Gods are at fault, they are impure. Furthermore, we heckled Dalits 6000 years ago. We must atone for our sins.
Raj, please take all our seats. You want money? Sure! Our women? Well, that's not our call dude, you have to ask them.
Non-Brahmin Hindu !
ReplyDeleteThe Permanent Solution I Think Is that :- Divide India Into Small Nations On Caste Lines, E.g. One Country For Brahmins, One for Upper Castes, One for OBC/SC/ST/Rest -- On the Basis of Population of the Caste. Every Caste Will have 100% Reservation in their Respective Country -- So Fighting Any More & All Will Develop. A Non Indian Commission of United Nations should be Formed to Divid India, to Maintain Impartiality, In Light of Historical Facts of Over 3000yrs, With No India In High Power Commission to Avoid Partiality. B/c In Present India Brahmins & Upper Castes Corners All Resources Meant for All Indians (OBC/SC/ST/REST INDIANS). Let's Face the Truths & Go For Final Solution that Is Once & For All !!
----- By For NOW !!!!
Non-Brahmin Hindu !
ReplyDeleteThe Permanent Solution I Think Is that :- Divide India Into Small Nations On Caste Lines, E.g. One Country For Brahmins, One for Upper Castes, One for OBC/SC/ST/Rest -- On the Basis of Population of the Caste. Every Caste Will have 100% Reservation in their Respective Country -- So Fighting Any More & All Will Develop. A Non Indian Commission of United Nations should be Formed to Divid India, to Maintain Impartiality, In Light of Historical Facts of Over 3000yrs, With No India In High Power Commission to Avoid Partiality. B/c In Present India Brahmins & Upper Castes Corners All Resources Meant for All Indians (OBC/SC/ST/REST INDIANS). Let's Face the Truths & Go For Final Solution that Is Once & For All !!
----- By For NOW !!!!
Non-Brahmin Hindu !
ReplyDeleteThe Permanent Solution I Think Is that :- Divide India Into Small Nations On Caste Lines, E.g. One Country For Brahmins, One for Upper Castes, One for OBC/SC/ST/Rest -- On the Basis of Population of the Caste. Every Caste Will have 100% Reservation in their Respective Country -- So Fighting Any More & All Will Develop. A Non Indian Commission of United Nations should be Formed to Divid India, to Maintain Impartiality, In Light of Historical Facts of Over 3000yrs, With No India In High Power Commission to Avoid Partiality. B/c In Present India Brahmins & Upper Castes Corners All Resources Meant for All Indians (OBC/SC/ST/REST INDIANS). Let's Face the Truths & Go For Final Solution that Is Once & For All !!
----- By For NOW !!!!
You said in one of your earlier posts you are an OBC yourself?
ReplyDeleteI am not even human, I am a barbarian.
So, in other words if a Dalit goes to IIT on his own merit, he is trying to act like a forward caste?
I don't need anyone to speak for me. That is the difference between you and me. You need a crutch, despite your father being an engineer you applied through the quota.
Aren't you ashamed of yourself? Kuch to sharm kar yaar! Jeez!
Why do I need to read my own posts again? I know what my views are.
ReplyDeleteWhen you say I am angry, you sound like Jeff Bridges in Big Lebowski. Of course, my only response is: I am calmer than you are!
Rashmi - Excellent post! You've inspired me to write something about this BITS reservation issue on my blog as well (http://chennaitochicago.blogspot.com/2006/06/bits-and-pieces-reservation-comes-to.html if you're interested).
ReplyDeleteAll I can say is that this whole reservation fracas seems politically motivated rather than any real intention to help backward classes.
Solution is very simple but next to impossible to implement given the dynamics and self-interest of different groups.
ReplyDeleteActually the solution is simpler than you think and is highly possible.
We need more opening up of the economy. Politicians almost grudgingly opened up our economy in 1991, faced with a BoP crisis and a threat from IMF.
Targetted development of the so called underprivileged never works. We have been trying it for 60 years just like other third world economies.
Indian orthodox Brahmins & their slaves Present All Over Indian System Will Never Allow the Development of the Rest Indians i.e OBC/SC/ST/Rest Whose Population Is Over 85% of India - Come What May ! B/c Brahmins/their Slaves -- Don't Even Consider OBC/SC/ST/ REST INDIANS - Humans !So ------:---
ReplyDeleteThe Permanent Solution I Think Is that :- Divide India Into Small Nations On Caste Lines, E.g. One Country For Brahmins, One for Upper Castes, One for OBC/SC/ST/ Rest -- On the Basis of Population of the Caste. Every Caste Will Have 100% Reservation In their Respective Country -- So No Fighting Any More & All Will Develop. A Non Indian Commission of United Nations should be Formed Under ChairManShip of It's Chief Koffi Anan --- to Divid India, to Maintain Impartiality, In Light of Historical Facts of Over 3000yrs, With No India In High Power Commission to Avoid Partiality. B/c In Present India Brahmins & Upper Castes Manage to Corners All Resources Meant for All Indians (OBC/SC/ST/REST INDIANS)- that's Why Brahmins/Upper Castes are Happy In Present India. OBC/SC/ST/Rest are Not Socially & Educationally Backward By - Choice - BUT - B/c Brahmins & their Slaves In Power have Kept them So - By Force & Conspiracy Since Over 3000yrs Particularly 1947 Onwards !
----- Let's Face the India's Ground Level Realities/Truths the Way they Are & Go For the Final Solution that Is Once & For All !!!
--- So Rashmi Bansal What's Your Reaction ???
--- Non-Brahman Hindu ! By For NOW !!!!!!!!!!
Dear Mr. Raj,
ReplyDeleteApart from Shiv and Parvathi, Does Jesus also divide people on caste basis? If you were a born christian, How did you call yourself backward (AND misuse two seats?)? Are there caste-divisions in Christianity too?
As an EDUCATED person, you should be able to see through the arguments of our politicians. Just inclusion of a few 100 people of OBCs into the higher education system among millions of them won't improve the conditions of millions of them.
I too am a non-Brahmin Hindu. Why is this debate often looked upon as a Brahmin (anti-quota) VS non-Brahmin (Pro-Quota)?. If a community has excelled in all fields, and is in top, we should look as to how they have been able to do it and try to replicate across all the other communities and fields.
If you cannot go up, don't try to bring down those who have gone up. The mass exodus of so called "high-class" people from TN and the way they have been excelling in US and other countries speak how poor we have executed our systems here which drives people from here and encourages flight of people and capital.
Why isn't it possible to strengthen the primary education? Why do you give up on it? It is definitely possible, if funds collected for education cess is properly used for it, instead of using it for implementation of whims and fancies of minions like Arjun Singh, Meira Kumar.
On top of this, reservation in private sectors!!! This country is definitely fed to dogs in bits and pieces!!!
Why don't you come back to India? You will get a "reserved" job in PSUs or Govt department. If everything, right from college seat to job is reserved for you, will you be motivated to work for it??!!!!
Three excellent articles worth reading for the likes of Mr. Raj and for all people:
ReplyDeletehttp://ia.rediff.com/news/2006/jun/09guest.htm
http://www.deeshaa.org/2006/06/11/565/#more-565
http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/2006/06/12/stories/2006061200040800.htm
Cheers,
Venkat.
Raj,
ReplyDeleteYou are missing the whole point here.
Whether the institutes are good, whether merit is relative or whether IIT graduates decide to become rock guitarists has no relevance in this debate.
The point is, people DESIRE IIT seats. You did too, didn't you? But you STOLE the seat.
Compare this to, money is desired by folks. Now, many people believe money is bad (Can't buy me love etc.). Now, would that make a valid reason for you to steal my money?
Reservations are nothing but government sanctioned bank robbery.
IF YOU WANT A F'ING SEAT, YOU MUST COMPETE!
My logic is bad and I suppose you invented calculus? You are clearly not even capable of getting the essence of my arguments.
ReplyDeleteSimple question, did you deserve the IIT seat? If so, why? After 4 years at IIT, why couldn't you compete for a seat in the IIM?
Quite obviously the big posts are confusing matters.
ReplyDeleteWhat is your most fundamental argument for reservations? Please be succinct.
http://emotionalzombie.blogspot.com/
ReplyDelete"No! Let’s join the self-proclaimed snobs protesting with slogans “Remember your place”, polishing shoes and cleaning premises? Let’s pretend not to see it at all! Damn Reservations!"
Mr. Raj,
ReplyDeleteYou have missed the whole point of OUR argument. Our question is - Did you deserve the seat(s) (being the son of a person who has already claimed the reservation?).
You already exploited one seat, and then went on to exploit another. You obviously belonged to the creamy layer and even then exploited the quota system. I know umpteen no. of people who are in creamy layer (far rich that me or even you) but using quotas. WERE QUOTAS MEANT FOR THEM? I know a girl, who (mis)used quota for BE and then for an IIM seat. The same with her two brothers who misused 2 seats each. Her father is a govt. college professor!!! This is just the tip of the iceberg.
Just because one is a dalit, one does not become "backward". Economic backwardness is MUCH MORE important than social backwardness.
Why are you evading questions relevant to you? About Forward/Backward in Christianity and whether you deserved a reserved seat since your father had already used a reserved seat?
And yes, for GOD's sake, don't talk about Engineers not working as Engineers. It is totally irrelevant to the topic. We are worried about the entry to the IIT Engineering degree (which definitely requires the drive and merit, as has been said in PV Indiresan's article. I can't imagine someone laughing at Indiresan!!) rather than what they do later.
I repeat again, If you cannot raise up, don' pull down those who have already risen! Standards of institutions should always increase, but no decrease!
Indian orthodox Brahmins & their Upper Caste slaves Present All Over Indian System Will Never Allow the Development of the Rest Indians i.e OBC/SC/ST/Rest Whose Population Is Over 85% of India - Come What May ! B/c Brahmins/their Slaves -- Don't Even Consider OBC/SC/ST/ REST INDIANS - Humans ! So :------
ReplyDeleteThe Permanent Solution I Think Is that :- Divide India Into Small Nations On Caste Lines, E.g. One Country For Brahmins, One for Upper Castes, One for OBC/SC/ST/ Rest -- On the Basis of Population of the Caste. Every Caste Will Have 100% Reservation In their Respective Country -- So No Fighting Any More & All Will Develop. A Non Indian High Power Commission of United Nations should be Formed Under ChairManShip of It's Chief Koffi Anan --- to Divid India Into Small Nations on Caste Lines , & to Maintain Impartiality, In Light of Historical Facts of Over 3000yrs, With No India In High Power Commission to Avoid Partiality. B/c In Present India Brahmins & Upper Castes Manage to Corners All Resources Meant for All Indians (OBC/SC/ST/REST INDIANS)- that's Why Brahmins/Upper Castes are Happy In Present India. OBC/SC/ST/Rest are Not Socially & Educationally Backward By - Choice - BUT - B/c Brahmins & their Slaves In Power have Kept them So - By Force & Conspiracy Since Over 3000yrs Particularly 1947 Onwards !
----- Let's Face the India's Ground Level Realities/Truths the Way they Are & Go For the Final Solution that Is Once & For All !!!
--- So Rashmi Bansal & Rest People Who are Regular on this Blog, What's Your Reaction ???
--- Non-Brahman Hindu ! SEE My Blog = www.zanjeer.blogspot.com TO know Why I'm Forced to Say So ! By For NOW !!!
Arguably, if all IITians became rock guitarists (assuming they are even mildly successful in the international arena), the GDP growth of the country would be much higher.
ReplyDeleteThe point here is the concept of choice. Given a choice, an individual will try to make the most money. Obviously, given free choice, the individuals will actually end up contributing the most to the economy. Yes, some people may make unusual career choices, but that choice is theirs. We don't know atthe time of the entrance what choices they will make. Heck, all students will probably say they want to join government of India as engineer and build big steel plants and dams! What we should do is to give a fiercely competitive exam and let only the sharpest students in. Which is precisely what we are doing with the exception we are letting in some subpar folks.
The idea that an individual has to subordinate his desire to the goals of the state has roots in communism and the world of islamo-fascism. If you like any of these ideologies, we have nothing to say.
Macro economics quiz:
ReplyDeleteAn IIT engineer, A, joins ICICI as an investment banker. He pulls in nearly 15 Lakhs in salary and bonuses.
Another IITian, B, joins the PWD as a civil engineer. He pulls in perhaps 3 lakhs.
Which of the above contributes more to GDP?
What is your answer?
ReplyDeleteFunny, isn't it?
ReplyDeleteI will tell you what else is funny.
Perhaps about 300-400 thousand Dalit families, like yours, continue to gobble up these quotas, the easy loans, the land reform benefits etc. for generations. Meanwhile 200 million dalits continue to live in terrible conditions. This is funny because it is so absurd.
More fun: Your entire argument is based on how your caste worked to your disadvantage etc. etc. But you aren't even Hindu! You were born a Christian! How funny!
Some more: We, the so called upper-castes read whatever we like at our leisure. Maybe even porn, fun stuff. But you keep poring over our mythology, hoping to find plotholes. This is spine tickling funny man!
Raj
ReplyDeleteI wont respond to all the comments that have been already posted or on the rationale of your or barbarindian's posts.
Being a student at one of the IIMs i have a sense of the disillusionment that aspiring students feel about the entire reservation scenario. The effort it takes to get into these top institutes is an indication of the high quality of education these institutes have to offer. Shouldnt higher education in our elite institutes be about excellence and achievement. I really dont know whether u revel in ur 'sense of achievement' of having been at IIT and IIM. What i fail to understand is whether higher education in our IITs and IIMs should be about charity in the form of reservations or about aspiring and achieving. Quotas take away from the entire admission process the motivation to excel which is what education is all about. Higher education isnt the 'arena' for administering 'social justice'. Its about upholding quality and merit and recognising achievement.
The solution would be providing the OBCs the means and the resources to compete on an equal platform with their counterparts in the upper castes.
Quotas in their present form have failed and the aim at the time of independence would have been to progressively reduce reservations. That the time has come to increase them is in itself an indicator of the failure of the reservation policy.
If the government decided to take money from the upper caste and distribute it to the lower castes as compensation; that my friend would be charity.
ReplyDeleteThat my friend, would be robbery. Quotas are in fact just that.
Raj,
ReplyDeleteu said,
1. "Has reservation as a policy really failed?? What measure of time is appropriate to make that conclusion?? "
If five decades of reservation is insufficient to alleviate the disadvantages faced by SCs and STs then surely u arent suggesting we need a couple of centuries! By and large the people who are going to flourish under the current quota regime are the offsprings of those who have already emerged out of the reservation policies of the independence era. There is no distinction under the current law between a group which has already benefited under the reservation umbrella and those which the govt. claims to be helping right now.
2. Why are so many people angry about reservation?? It all comes down to “Potential to make money”.
Whats wrong with that?? If i am going to work long hours and struggle my way into an IIM competing with 160,000 candidates i deserve a standard of living which is in proportion to the quality of my efforts. Why should you be judgemental about anyone's quest to make money? In any case why do u or any SC/ST or General category candidate aspire to get into IIM or an IIT?? Your point about people wanting to make money is ridiculous. I will quote Vince Lombardi who said "The quality of a man's life is proportional to his commitment to excellence" ..
3. You want them to do this at a different level (Primary education), I believe this is faster.
Since u claim that this is faster and since u have already made the point that sixty years of reservation is inadequate for this purpose i can only ask u as to what period of time do u have in mind!
The devil doctors exposed by the IBN-CNN raise a number of questions?
ReplyDeleteAre these doctors meritwallahs or from depressed classes?
Why the so-called upper caste merit wallahs doctors turned out to be
devils ? We dont say depressed people cant do it, but till date none
has been found in this racket.
This racket clearly shows why the doctors dont want to expand
medical education ?
There is huge money in this profession which has become synonymous
with dalali, anything can be fixed for money?
The IMA must tell why merit wallahs were found doing this, as it
feels that they are the upholders of hippocrates oath in this
country. The IMA itself is is battleground of corruption and sleaze,
and there are many more skeletons in the cupboard.
Hacker docs in the dock, IMA promises action
CNN-IBN
Posted Saturday , July 29, 2006 at 21:17
Updated Sunday , July 30, 2006 at 10:59 Email Print
New Delhi: After CNN-IBN and DIG exposed doctors who cut off
beggars' limbs for a price to help the beggar mafia the Indian
Medical Association (IMA) has promised to prosecute the erring
doctors.
Dr Ajay Kumar, National President Elect of the Indian Medical
Association has said that the doctors will be arrested immediately.
"If they are registered with the IMA then their medical license will
be immediately suspended," he said.
The police have already taken Dr P K Bansal for questioning. He runs
a clinic named Orthomat in Delhi's Old Rajinder Nagar locality.
Dr Bansal had agreed to amputate the limbs of a beggar despite
knowing that the law prohibits amputation by will.
Another doctor, Ghaziabad-based Ajay Agarwal took money to amputate
healthy limbs of a DIG investigator who posed as a prospective
beggar.
People entered Agarwal's house in Ghaziabad and demanded action
against the erring doctor.
In a sting operation, a team of CNN-IBN reporters exposed
orthopaedic surgeon Ajay Agarwal's unethical practice.
Dr Agarwal put the fake beggar through a series of medical tests at
his nursing home.
The surgeon pocketed Rs 4,000 as advance for the operation from the
team while also giving advice on how the amputation could be made to
look legal.
When CNN-IBN reached Dr Ajay Agarwal at the Noida Civil Hospital,
the cameraperson was pushed and abused.
It was in fact Dr Ajay Agarwal who had referred Dr P K Bansal to the
investigative team as part of amputation nexus.
Dr Ajay Agarwal is absconding and the police are trying to track him
down.
CNN-IBN had also exposed Dr Arvind Agarwal of Bareilly.
Dr Agarwal, who is also the Secretary of the Orthopaedic Association
of Bareilly is now absconding.
His wife says he has not returned since Saturday afternoon.
When questioned about Dr Agarwal, his wife, Dr Neera Agarwal
said,"If he has not come then how can I tell you?"
The police are now looking out for him. The Senior Superintendent of
Police (SSP), Bareilly, Anand Swaroop said, "We are looking for him
and have contacted IMA for cooperation."
Mr Raj,
ReplyDeleteI agree with many of your points. But here's something I'd like you to think about. Now the "aim" of these reservations are to help those who really need to be uplifted right? The people who are literally on the streets doing menial jobs because that's what their families have been doing for generation?
Now I have a question for you. How is reservation in IIT's going to help THESE people, when these people don't even attend primary school?? I agree we need reservation but the level at which reservation is applied should be at the lower levels. Lower caste/income people should be encouraged to get through entire of school. A person from a lower caste who completes school will be as competent as a higher caste person going through the same process of learning.
This is what people question when it comes to reservation in the IITs. They question how these reservations help the people who they are intended for.
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