Wednesday, January 28, 2009

Slumdog MBA

ISB is over the sun and the moon for cracking the Financial Times bschool rankings once again. They have in fact moved up 5 places - from # 20 last year, to # 15.

I have the highest regard for ISB but to be honest, I do not buy the # 15 ranking. Reasons are as follows:

* These are 'global MBA' rankings. But how global is ISB? The student community is 96% Indian. Only 4% hold non-Indian passports (and my guess is many of those would be of Indian origin).

The faculty is only 82% Indian, despite the many many visiting professors.

* In the area of research ISB is ranked no 75 out of 100. It does not have a 'doctoral rank' at all because it did not have a PhD program till recently.

So where does ISB score? The weighted salary (calculated in PPP) and % salary increase (before and after the MBA). Those figures stand at $148,339 and 160% respectively.

These two parameters account for 40% of the weightage when calculating the ranking.

The question however is, if you were anywhere in the world and aspiring for an international MBA would you place ISB higher than Northwestern Kellogg (#21), Duke University: Fuqua (#22) or UCLA Anderson (# 29)?

I think the absence of international students at ISB is telling. But who know what came first - the chicken or the egg? A few more years in the FT top 20 is just what ISB needs - to make that demographic shift.

The second big question everytime the FT rankings are released is: "Where are the IIMs"? Well, they do not qualify as 'MBAs' under the criteria used by FT as they also admit fresh graduates.

As far as I know IIMs do plan to approach FT to rank the 1 year PGP X program where work ex is compulsory. These programs become eligible only after 3 batches graduate as the survey requires historical salary data and alumni responses.

But PGP X is not the flagship program of the IIMs, so it will still seem unfair - at the end of it.

Reminds me of the hoo-ha in India over our films making it to the Oscars. A Bollywood film - no matter how good - is only going to be considered under the category of 'best foreign film'. It takes a movie like Slumdog Millionaire, in an Indian setting but with a Western sensibility to get 10 Oscar nominations.

But the box office reaction to Slumdog in India is mixed.

Similar is the case with the IIMs. For the average 21 year old they are THE bschools of choice. ISB will never get 250,000 applicants for its 400 odd seats.

And yet, IIMs - or at least their alumni - do itch for the 'Oscars'. But are the institutes willing to cater to the international audience? Or take an interest in marketing themselves?? The answer is "no".

So they remain kings of the local market (for the near future - aagey ka keh nahin saktey). Like the quintessential hit Hindi film!

My comment on ISB in FT rankings last year


  1. I somewhat have a slightly different opinion from your post.

    1. I agree that the criteria used by FT to release their rankings is not what the students use to apply. And all schools are judged using the same parameter, so all is fair.

    2. You aptly point out the "chicken and egg" paradox. Obviously, to attract, international students, ISB needs these rankings to market themselves. And the controversies arising whether or not ISB "deserves" to be there are irrelevant. ISB got its much needed 'global' publicity.

    3. Research. Research is required in a B-school to keep itself abreast with the latest developments and upgrade the academia. But Tuck (#12), for instance, also does not have a PhD program.

    4. Your point about international faculty is true. But you may notice that most of the highly distinguished faculty in US B-schools are also of Indian origin.

    5. Comparing IIMs and ISB is a case of apples and oranges. they have different models of MBAs and thus comparing them would be unfair.

    6. "Slumdog Millionnaire" is not a Bollywood movie. It is a Hollywood movie and thus is eligible for Oscars.

    7. Comparing the number of applicants to a B-school.. how is that a criteria to judge? The most respected, HBS also gets around 9000 odd applicants --> lesser then at IIMs. I thanks God ISB does not get 250000 "applications". You need much more than writing the scores and paying the application fee to apply.

    I restate: I am not comparing anything and I am not biased. If IIM's also make it to the rankings, I'll be prouder, as an Indian.

  2. IIMs are like Air India which thrives in a socialist, monopolistic environment while ISB is like Kingfisher.

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  5. I'm not sure how the faculty being 82% *Indian* (whatever that means) is relevant. Take the Strategy area (which is the one I know best). With the exception of Ranjan Das, every person on the Strategy faculty is either currently on the faculty of a business school outside India (many of them in senior positions) or has a PhD from a top U.S. school. Surely that's enough to make them global.

    As for ISB's research rank - I think that's a little misleading. First, building a strong research tradition takes time (much more so than, say, building a strong teaching school) and there's no reason to believe that ISB won't rise in the research rankings. Second, I think that rank seriously understates the quality of intellectual capital ISB draws on. ISB's visiting faculty includes a number of extremely successful researchers, but their research is done at their home schools and not at ISB. Which means that ISB is not a great place to go if you're a PhD student looking to do research. But for an MBA student, who just needs access to the latest ideas out there, I suspect ISB provides instruction from a set of researchers who are every bit as prolific as say, Duke or Columbia.

    I do agree that the % salary increase metric is problematic. Obviously, if the average pre-MBA salary for ISB students is substantially lower than it is for students in other programs, then the % increase is going to look disproportionately large. But that doesn't mean very much for an applicant who has a high pre-MBA salary since he / she may not get the 160% increase.

    That said, I really don't think the IIMs are competitive with ISB at this point - much as it hurts me to say it (being a WIMWI alumnus). I simply don't think the IIMs have the caliber of globally active faculty that ISB has. If they remain the first choice for people graduating from college (and continue to receive a much larger number of applications - assuming that's even relevant) I suspect that's partly just ignorance on the part of applicants and partly the lack of attractive job opportunities for college graduates, which makes choosing to hold off on getting an MBA and waiting till you can get into an ISB that much harder. Personally, I'd advise anyone trying to choose between ISB and an IIM to pick the former.

  6. This rather looks more like an unofficial article on "Where are the IIMs and why don't they figure in the FT Rankings"...

    Global MBA rankings don't mean that the student community has to be global too. They mean that how good "prospects" does a university provide when globally compared to other universities. And your saying that the faculty is Indian so it shouldn't be ranked on the global platform is plain stupid - there isn't any other word for it. IITs/Any other top college in India would never rank among the global schools then.

    Similar is the case with the IIMs. For the average 21 year old they are THE bschools of choice. ISB will never get 250,000 applicants for its 400 odd seats.

    Yes. And most of those average 21 year olds are young and foolish grads, who can't see anything beyond the salaries they would get after graduating from the IIMs. If ISB was open to fresh graduates, I am sure they would have the same number of applicants in a few years. What junta does is not always right and logical you know? ISB is a new school, give it, its own share of credit. Don't cry fowl if IIMs (your alma mater) don't figure in those rankings.

  7. Rashmi Bansal - Hmmm
    Are you the same author who compared IIMA and IIMC and wrote a lot of filth about IIMC?

    You DO NOT AGREE with the ISB being placed 15th on the ranking huh? Have you thought why it is that 40% percent of the ranking is based on SALARy and INCREMENT? Maybe the FT ranking guys are just a shade better at rating B-Schools than Your Curry is?

    All of a sudden there is a problem with Indian-ness of the Indian School of Business..? may I know how many of your alma were/are FIRANGS? The country needs more schools of ISB's repute and ability to drive the wheels of its economy.
    IMHO, you are biased towards the IIMs - IIMA especially. And are looking to bring down ISB because it made it to the FT ratings before IIMA did. Why not try to understand and appreciate that both schools (rather a lot of INDIAN B-Schools) are mentoring and creating leaders that will be India's future?

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  10. aND i CAnnot believe that you would actually put up a statistic as stupid as the claim of 250,000 folks applying to the IIMA.
    that ways everyone who sends their GMAT score to the ISB applies to the ISB..?
    Have you ever considered that it takes ZILCH effort to apply to IIMs? I always circled IIM-K even though I would write the CAT only for IIMA B C L.
    Doesnt IIM-K and now IIM-Guwahati also get 250,000 applications ?????????????? What rubbish can you write - are you the author / editor for Bangalore's DNA newspaper as well - because it is one of their ads "it is tougher to get into IIM-B than it is to get into Wharton".
    For people who have any clue about business and economy - YES. For kids who know their TRIGONOMETRY - NO!

  11. It is so tempting to agree with Akash and Vivek.

    For all your thoughts penned now, and for all those "enlightening" ones published so far, I ask you this, has anyone called you The Farah Khan of Publishing Industry?

    May be a mix of both Farah Khan and Sajid Khan when it comes to writing unilateral articles on business schools, school worthiness, "subject" worthiness, "branch" worthiness.

    If there is a "caste system" in education in India where one branch/stream/subject is "deemed" superior to the others, it is because of jaundiced, shams like you. Sigh! you have an IIM-A degree!

    Grow up Rashmi, put your experience to good use, and writing matured articles. Do not for heaven's sake come up with these Chunkey Pandey type of pukeworthy articles peppered with puerile sounding Hindi. Pretentious!

    Your articles are a shame, forget inspiring.

  12. People like you make me laugh. Last year ISB ranked 1 in salary and people came up and said tht this is what propelled ISB into rank 20. This year ISB is not even in top 10 when it comes to salary yet some smart ppl come up and say this is what propelled ISB. As far as comparison of ISB and IIMs are concerned here is my take:
    1. One school hires freshers and other does not. If you have had even little bit of work ex before going for an MBA you will realize how much of a difference this does make. It gives you a different perspective altogehter
    2. One school has 50% reservation other doesn't. This for me is the deal breaker. If you have 50% of your batchmates as sub standard students who make it just coz they were born in a particular caste then I am not sure how good a network are you creating for yourself.
    3. Most of my frnds are sitting in IIMS and all they care about is getting themselves into some hot shot finance firm. If this is what an MBA is all about we should really go and do an MS in finance. This as far as I know is not true about ISB.
    4. And when it comes to 250k number hahaha is all I can say. Is IIMS better than HSW I am sure some one like you thinks so.
    5. When it comes to CAT, a movie like LuckByChance can be made on it.

  13. Either you are pissed off because IIMA didnt make it to the global rankings or you are one of those who mistake ISB's rapid growth rate with "hype".
    No Indian can afford to disregard the glory of IIM A,B,C. But by being oblivious to ISB's student profile, its global faculty, the institute management, the peer group and the course design - you'd only develop a biased perspective.
    I know it's tough, but the wise must have courage to embrace the new.

  14. I think yours is a very biased comment.

    I completely agree with the points made by The Teacher here. If FT is ranking all the global B-schools based on certain criteria, then we cannot raise doubts over ISB's merit. I am sure the criteria applied to every school and all the schools and their alumni had equal chance to make their school one of the top schools. Moreover, it should be a matter of pride for us educated Indians that such a prestigious B-School made it to these rankings instead of behaving like the stereotyped Indians who always bring down people of their own ilk.

    I too laugh at the 250,000 reference that you gave. It has no relevance or logic. Most of the people who apply to ISB would have thought out well and decided to pursue an MBA after working for a while unlike other B-schools (including IIMs) which take in freshers and a majority of engineers to be precise. No B-School in India can match the kind of diversity that ISB brings in a class. And no B-school in India should be compared to ISB because it's course and ideology are different.

    And the least said about the Indian/foreign faculty the better. You know for yourself that most of premier B-schools have many Indian professors. So, should we compromise on quality for the want of diversity in professors' origins?

    Disclosure: I am an ISBian.

  15. Couldn't resist responding. The FT ranking is after all based on a model. What numbers it spews out may not necessarily be accurate. But as long as the criteria are objective, you can't argue with them.

    Moreover, what you cannot deny is that ISB offers experienced Indians an option of a world class education, away from the routine grind of the IIMs and CAT. There is, after all, more to business than number crunching.

    ISB is working terrifically hard to diversify its student base. The admission process is geared to be along the lines of the best B-schools in the world and ISB is trying to leverage this to enroll a more international student profile. ISB has potential. All it requires is time.

    There's no way IIMs' CAT will ever attract a diversified/international student community.

    The faculty being primarily Indian has no relevance as long as their exposure is global.

    If I were to setup an institution, I would like to invite application from candidates who have displayed achievement in their professional life, academic excellence and possess a can-do spirit.

    What's the point in taking freshers who are yet to prove themselves ? Sure IIMs are a good choice for these people, but I think work-ex brings a different perspective and strongly advocate people to work for 2 years or more and re-evaluate their priorities.

    As for a debate about UCLA vs ISB, look no further. I was admitted to UCLA and ISB both and will join ISB, because I believe in its core values and potential for success.

    And IIMs are better because they get 250,000 applications ? Come on...

    Don't get me wrong, I respect the IIMs for what they have achieved over the past many years. However, a major re-think is now required.

    It makes me wonder why IIMs' PGPX was modeled along ISB's approach ? Therein lies the answer to all your questions.

    The impression I get from your article is that of an alumna trying desperately hard to justify the alma-mater. It's commendable, but futile. I would have expected MBAs across the country to be proud that at least 1 Indian school has made it to a global list.

    And you need not be worried, somewhere down the line, it's highly likely that at least one IIM's PGPX program will figure internationally.

  16. I am totally at a loss at your cynicism towards the FT rankings !!
    Are you upset that you didn't go to ISB?
    Are you upset that IIM's are not there?
    Are you just upset with the fact that an Indian school made it tothe international rankings?

    Slum+Dog+MBA = ISB :O you have got to be kidding!!! There is absolutely nothing 3rd world about
    ISB be it : the Profs,the campus, the facilities , the students,the admission process or the opportunities it provides.

    You have got the analogy completely wrong ,ma'am. "Slumdog Millionaire" raised a few eyebrows
    coz a section argued it glorified india's poverty but i don't see that in the case of ISB in FT rankings nor would any sane guy!!

    IIM's cater to a different crowd and ISB to another, so please refrain from mindless comparisons. 250,000 applicants.. well for me writing CAT was no more than a festival like
    Diwali which came every year and cost a thousand bucks!! so if you want to do some serious arguing please spare some time to find out how many were serious applicants... U might be a li'l surprised lady !!

    IIMs have a very special place in the India education system and it is very well-deserved..
    Article like your's only trivialize the same.

    With all due respect, till you take this article off the blog, please rename your blog as :
    Youth Curry - Insights from a mindless youth!!


  17. Hah..So you said ISB ranks 75th on DOCTORAL RESEARCH becase till recently they did not have a doctoral program - so if we only just STARTED a doctoral program, HOW CAN ISB BE RANKED HIGH??

    What are you trying to post here - rhetoric? Cant you just take this post off? The worst part is when you google for "ISB ranked 15th" your stupid post shows up - have you considered CEIBS and China? Do you see Chinese guys writing posts suggesting CEIBS made it to top 10 because of the salary and PPP and all that? Am sure if you were American and from GBIM (George Bush Inst of Mgmt) you wud have suggested that Wharton ranks above GBIM because their alums ranked their alma very high - Silly Billy!

  18. But why are we so excited about it? Can we really call it an Indian movie, considering the director, the producer, the screen play writers are all white-skinned, the lead actor Dev Patel is also a Brit Indian.

    In the post on your stupidzine about Slumdog Miliionaire - you suggest that Dev Patel is firang and hence the movie has no Indian links. But when you have a guy of Indian "origin" - or even skin tone - who has been teaching at some elite American BSchool and coming down to the ISB --- you go ahead and suggest that "even the so called international faculty is largely of indian origin"

    Life mein problem kya hai?

  19. @Vivek,

    The weirdest part is, in the post on the ranking last year, the lady praises the faculty at ISB.

    I quote:

    d) The international faculty ISB attracts is mind blowing. I would love to take courses with some of those profs!

    So now I wonder - why the change of heart ? Suddenly the "mind-blowing" international faculty becomes just Indian ;)

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  23. Hey, how are you doing? Hope all is well.

  24. Is this post a joke or you really believe in it? Coz none of the arguments seem to be well thought out and you seem to be contradicting your last post on ISB (one which you have provided a link for).
    If you are jealous that IIM-A didn't make it. Just say so. I'm sure everyone will then read the article for what it is.
    I for one am extremely proud that an Indian B School is up there with the best.

  25. Guys (I mean Vivek & other hyper-emotional ISBians), I agree that this post has an underlining tone that IIM(A) is A grade And ISB - B grade, but just because Rashmi has penned down her thoughts (however biased they maybe), you should show chivalry, dignity & some respect - she is quite senior and is the same lady who has not feared to expose the likes of fraud institutes like IIPM.

    I think most of the comments here are from ISB (esp ISB class of 2010). After reading this post one not only laughs at Rashmi but also at the immature comments of guys like Vivek.

    Vivek - For heavens sake you are running a so-called "MBA blog", please show some maturity, and remove words like "Ra$**" from your blog. Is this they way to handles criticism, esp when you have the facts on your side??? Just give the facts in a decent language and off you go.

    Have you noticed that Rashmi despite her biased(read wrong, foolish, immature, whatever) post has the dignity to not use indecent language in her reactions to comments, or even moderate comments....

    Guys lets not bring down the image of our best schools like ISB & IIMs in this fashion. Its a humble request. Thanks!

  26. Dear Rashmi,

    Your blog seems to have evoked pretty extreme reactions.
    However, I think you have been majorly unfair to the IIMs by equating them with Bollywood movies.
    The quality at IIMs is of a much higher order than the fare turned out by Bollywood.
    Besides, despite some of the vagaries in Oscar nominations, even the best of Bollywood movies can't compete with the Foreign language films, case in point being movies such as Shawshank Redemption et al. So please, we may watch Bollywood movies but please that does not imply that these movies are good.
    For all you know, some products sell for the lack of better products.

  27. I agree that IIMs through their CAT filter have been admitting top class people who had extremely good numerical ability,better than what ISB took. Now only if this ability is sufficient or not make an MBA better is another point of debate, however what I see is that IIMs due to the reservation policy and a little more holistic criteria(see CAT 2008 GD/PI criteria by each IIMs) of selection have been lowering the standards while ISB's GMAT is continuously on the rise. This year I know many ISB admits who have secured call from the top IIMs. So I think in a longer run ISB is not only going to take people with at least as good numerical ability as the IIMs do but also people with a much better profile and work ex.
    So with a better input, better facilities and superior faculty at ISB it's the IIMs that will have to play the catch up role. But all in all this competition is going to make the overall quality of input better at all the institutes.

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  29. Sugandha,

    "Hey Ra$**i " is what my blog says - I did not want to name her and I used **

    What is the problem here?

  30. I guess over time Rashmi (and/or her success) has generated a lot of worried souls and there is clear desperation in the intensity to oppose her on very first opportunity and at any cost.

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  32. @Sugandha

    Disclaimer: I don't know Vivek and I am not from ISB. I might not even have the right to write this comment, but what I write is common sense.

    If you bad-mouth someone/something and project biased facts about it - it doesn't matter whether you do it in an "indecent" language or not. You are doing a wrong thing and it's as simple as that! Rashmi is as wrong in giving her biased views, as is Vivek for defending his college in that way. Who is more wrong, is a problem of what came first - the chicken or the egg. :)

    I agree to -
    you should show chivalry, dignity & some respect - she is quite senior and is the same lady who has not feared to expose the likes of fraud institutes like IIPM.

    But I also believe being a senior and a famous blogger/journalist, Rashmi has all the more responsibility to not print/publish biased facts. And of course this isn't the first time. Nation's junta reads her comments and views on these topics, and she has the unwritten duty to present undistorted and unvarnished facts.

    Also, probably if she answered these people, at least by a comment on her blog, she'd be able to moderate some of these sentiments. Sometimes, we don't read between the lines, and choose to interpret a sentence the way we want to interpret it. If that's the case, she shouldn't be quiet. But her silence does speak more or at least makes others speak more! ;)

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  35. I think your comments are slightly biased against ISB.

    And Regarding IIM's being the B-school of choice, I might be a classic example of an exception to that.

    I am a 24 year old, IIT grad with 1.5 years of work experience, and I have a deferred admit to ISB's class of 2011. I took the 'CAT' as well, and got a 99.92%ile, and IIM interview calls, but I am not considering them as I do not think the professors and peers at IIM can groom the leader and manager within me the way the prfs and peers at ISB can.

    The very first point in your argument seems completely Way off mark. 'Global MBA Rankings' does not mean rankings of 'Global schools with a diverse diaspora', it simply means ranking schools all across the globe against each other, as opposed to say 'Indian MBA rankings' or 'US MBA rankings'.

    The International diversity IS a criteria in the rankings, and ISB does not score well in that. The fact that it still manages an amazing rank should not be berated but appreciated.

    Regarding comparisons to IIM A/B/C , well, i ask you what makes a good B-school? I'll talk about the factors that I, as an admit/(prospective admit), to both schools would consider.

    Quality of Intake/Peer group at the Institute The two institutes are very different. Given India's huge population, and just 900 odd seats in the widely known IIM's A+B+C, Whatever way IIM's go about conducting their admissions, they are bound to find good stuff. CAT has become a lottery ticket more than a respected examination of late. I'll take my own personal example. I was not able to clear the verbal cutoffs of CAT the last two years. Infact, last year, I got 4/100 in CAT 2007. Now , I've got a 1500/1600 in GRE, 300/300 in TOEFL (both taken PRE cat 2007), 760/800 in GMAT, and now a 99.85 %ile in the verbal section of CAT 2008 (post CAT 2007). Is it that my English was good, it got tremendously bad on 18th November 2007, and then suddenly improved? I don't think so. There has to be a flaw with the way the entrance exam was conducted. Take my word for it, The verbal section of CAT 2007 was very very stupid. Even the very authors of the written passages wud have been bamboozled by the options given in 'what is the author most likely to think' question after the passages. But since they are institutes which admit freshers, they are bound to get the 'early-bird advantage' as far as entrants are concerned, because for ISB u have to have 2 years of work experience.

    ISB will never get 250,000 applicants for its 400 odd seats.

    Again this argument of yours is extremely flawed. Firstly, 250,000 people do not necessarily WANT to apply to IIM's. They take the CAT, and since IIM application is a part and parcel of the CAT package, they are considered as applicants.

    Try putting a separate 1500/- fee for every individual IIM and u will see the number of applicants to IIM's seriously dropping.

    Moreover, CAT costs around 1300/- and a plethora of institutes offer admission based on the CAT score, so every Tom Dick and harry takes CAT.

    On the other hand, GMAT costs areound 11,000/- furthermore, apart from ISB (which has a 3000/- application fee), the application fee of other foreign schools accepting GMAT score is prohibitively high (anywhere between 12000/- to 15000/- per school). So only the most serious of candidates, who really are determined to do an MBA write the GMAT.

    Also, ISB has around 10,000 applicants coz in that case, the Exam (GMAT) is taken before the application, and only if the score is good enough for the candidate to have a serious chance, they apply to the school. Try using that for the IIM's (Applications invited only if u have a good enough CAT score to have a serious chance), and the applications will drop to around 2000-3000. And anyway, I don't think more than 10000 odd people believe they are realistically serious aspirants for IIM's on the morning of the CAT exam anyway.

    The Peer group at IIM (when I talk about IIM, I'm talking abt ABC, I do not want to embarrass them by comparing LIK to ISB) cannot even begin to match the peer group at ISB. Yes I know IIMs have extremely brilliant people, but how much can they learn from one another, given that a huge proportion of them are freshers, and most of them are Engineers and still most of the Engineers are IITians who have already spent 4 years together? Yes Agreed, IIM does get top 100 JEE rankers, Board toppers, and I have regards for these people, but who said a brilliant person can make a nice leader or manager? Infact, IIM during their PI's also stress on academics. We had a case where a person with 9 years of work experience in the IT industry, who was a Mechanical engineer by education, was asked just thermodynamics for the whole time. Who said just the Nerds had it in them?

    ISB looks at a more wholistic picture. They take in essays, A cultural fit and an importance of MBA in ur career path is gauged, You are evaluated on different fronts like academic, social responsibility, quality as a professional (Only IIM bangalore has recommendations as a criteria! I mean WHAT?, a B school admit without a professional recommendation sounds stupid to me)

    You have people as diverse as IAS officers, Ski Instructors, Indian National Hockey team Ex-Captain, Ex-Armed force personnel, Doctors, Airhostesses, and Beauty pageant winners coming in.

    I'm sure anyone who's been in touch with Bschool grads would know how important group assignments are, and how important Peer learning is. I'm sure a person can learn much much more from the peer group one can find at ISB as compared to that at IIM, which is brilliant but unidimensional.

    Faculty: IIM has the worst thing possible, FACULTY RESERVATIONS. I don't blame the IIM's for this, but it is a factor which should be considered when comparing it to ISB where meritocracy is the only criteria. ISB brings in top notch, celebrated faculty from the very best institutes in the world. I've heard many IIM grads say that they would like to do courses under those professors.

    Yes, most of the professors are of Indian origin, as you pointed out, but still they are renowned faculty in LBS, Wharton, Harvard, Kellogg, Ross etc.

    I am an IIT grad and trust me, most of the professors there could not imbibe in the students a passion for learning, and a passion for the subjects. I've spoken to my batchmates who are now in the IIMs and save for a few exceptional professors, they don't rate the IIM faculty very highly. IIM's and IIT's are what they are today, because of the kind of Students they admit. I personally think IIT faculty did not have much role in shaping me into the professional I am today. The peer group still did.

    So on faculty, I would rate ISB higher. thats 2-0 to ISB.

    Infrastructure : I don't want to embarrass IIMs by comparing them to ISB with regards to this parameter. 3-0 ISB.

    Placements : I know this might be inflated, using various gimmicks like CTC etc, But still, I would say ISB as at par with IIM A as far as placements are concerned. The domestic average is slightly more, the International average quite a lot more, as compared to IIM-A. Lets not give this point to either. Banking sector does favor IIMs because they follow the summer internship recruitment model. General Management prefers ISB. Consulting companies, till now, have around equal loyalties to ISB and IIM A/B.

    Lets still keep it at 3-0 ISB.

    Return on Investment : yes IIM A charges 11 lacs and ISB charges 20 lacs, but look at it this way, anyone worth his salt entering these esteemed institutions would graduate to a package atleast more than 9 lacs per annum, so there, the extra year ISB affords you would more than compensate for the fee difference. Moreover, u get to live in a high-end 5 star resort for one year with world class facilities for learning. Lets not give this to either. 3-0 ISB.

    So concluding the argument, I'd say that criticizing the ranking parameters itself will not help. Yes, maybe ISB is not the 15th best Business school on the planet. Maybe it is the 25th, or the 30th. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and there are people who might argue that Wharton doesn't deserve to be world number 1, and there are people who might say IIM L is better than INSEAD (trust me, I met a passionate jingostic IIML grad who actually believed this).

    The truth is that ISB may or may not be world rank 15, but it definitely is The best Bschool in India, ahead of IIM Ahmedabad. For it does best what a Bschool is supposed to do, give its students the highest standards of Faculty, curriculum, global exposure, Industry exposure, Imbibe in them leadership and confidence, all in a place with world class infrastructure. IIMs might fret and be miffed about it, but it is the truth, the carpet has been pulled from underneath their feet. Grand Daddies of India's Business education forgot the most fundamental rule of Business, Do not take competetion for granted, do not be complacent. IIMs can best be symbolized as the boiling frog. Someday, the water which is warm right now shall boil over.

    Lastly, pertaining to your highly disagreeable analogy to Slumdog Millionaire, well, an Oscar, is an Oscar, is an Oscar, and there's nothing anyone can do about it :-).

  36. Nitin ,
    Can I copy your comment and post it on my blog? I am amazed at your clarity of thought and the ease with which you have put forth your argument

  37. @Rashmi, look at Nitin's post for an example of good analytical writing.

    @Nitin, Now I know why ISB is so desperate to have you. Too bad you aren't in this year's batch...

  38. haha..rashmi's done her job rohit.
    wrote an orthodox playing-to-the-masses article and probably generated a few 1000 clicks
    done with her promised VIEWS for the advertisers

  39. The crux of my argument is that ISB is a great bschool but not #15 in the world. Yet.

    You are free to disagree but why get so worked up!

  40. @Rashmi,

    Your post last year was a more balanced affair. This year, somehow, you have deviated from the track, which led many of us to interpret the post as "against" ISB.

    This might not have been your intention, but that's the gist of what many of us felt.

    We all know that ISB may not be perfect. However, it is an achievement for an Indian B-School to be considered in such rankings in such a short span of time.

    Perhaps we were expecting more support from across the blogosphere, something which this post clearly doesn't provide.

    Even this comment of yours, would have been sufficient to douse the fires early on. But perhaps you had other fish to fry.

    Anyways, Cheers...

  41. Hi Rashmi,

    Even after reading how people have rejected ur arguments and have justified their position so clearly in the article, u r adamant on ur position ? It is really strange.

    I am sure other people from IIM would never make such illogical comments like 250K applicants and Global MBA to justify their stand. Please bring some substance in ur arguments.

    99.9 percentile is not the end of the world. None of the chairmans of Fortune 500 companies scored 99.9 percentiles. They are well rounded individuals from Harvards of the world.

  42. Hey Rashmi,

    u r being too pround in 250000 applicants.

    250000 applicants is not a matter of pride. Rather it shows there is some flaw in the way selection is done at IIMs.

    u shud not misguide thousands of candidates who may read ur blog.

    For your information do you know that in most of the top 20 B-Schools in the world, the selection rate is very high as only very serious candidates who score good GMAT and have good profile apply.

    For your information the number of seats to total number of applicants in the following schools are as follow:

    90/450 (IMD)
    255/2550 (Tuck)
    360/5400 (Columbia)
    900/7200 (Harvard)
    430/3000 (Duke)

    source: Economist Rankings

    wow...IMD receives just 450 applications. not even 0.2% of what IIMS receive..why dont u write an article comparing IMD with IIMS...?? ...or with Harvard does not receive even 3% of applications which IIMs receive..

    By the way I am applying to IIMs as well as ISB.

  43. Quite interesting debate here "My dad is strongest" :)
    Wonder why in spite of participants coming from so called esteemed institutes of this country are giving so many (twisted) logics to prove something which is always bound to remain arguable ! Just cause each of you have passed/is studying/about to join some school and sees a part of self in that brand.
    Or is just a coincidence that original poster,who has passed from a certain B school and now can't tolerate another school from the same country (in fact almost same demography as both have more 90% Indians) climbing ladders on a turf where her brand is yet to debut properly, is being challenged by a very analytical poster,with lot of data (obviously copy pasted from official website of school, who has got a ding from his coveted India's top rated B school for some stupid method (you are only as good as you were in kinder garden).
    I seriously hope my doubt goes wrong and this turns out to be just a coincidence else tomorrow in all this stupid argument we'll end up dissolving brand "Indian manger" worldwide.

  44. Hi Rashmi,

    I am an applicant to B-Schools this year, and like you, I wouldn't buy the 15th ranking for ISB. Come on, it can't be better than Duke or Ross.

    However, when I compare it to IIMs, I find it equally good, if not better. And the reason is the diversity and work experience of the batch. And it might be a case of sour grapes for me - I suck at the math part of the CAT.

    But I have this friend who scored 99+ percentile this year, with 3 year of work-ex, and he can not get an interview invite from the ABCs. And the reason - his 10th and 12th scores weren't good enough. How does it even matter, and even if it does, why doesn't the work-ex count for anything? He is very disillusioned.

    For me, ISB and IIMs are two totally different schools. And they can not be compared.

  45. Seeing all the comments, I feel people many are taking Rashmi's analysis, as a personal rebuke.

    Rashmi's comments are her side of the story, so people are free to either take it or leave it and the forum is for a decent discussion, rather than throwing insulting remarks that since IIM not in list, there she wants to trash ISB.

    I am not an alumni of either IIM or ISB (but MBA from a US school), and would love to see any Indian school, being on top of Global rankings. But obviously, both IIM and ISBs need to do keep on working more, to be contantly in the top rankings.
    ISB is based on what a good MBA should be, attract students with work ex, have good faculty, provide lot of exposure, but still needs to attract more international students (like LSB, US schools) to be ranked highly. On other side, IIMs don't even attract foreign students (but attract best of Indian students) and are based on sort of lottery system (CAT needs to be re-looked) and attracts lot of students, who would not get the true value of MBA (as many students fresh out of college). IIMs have built lot of creditability across the globe/India and do provide a very good platform to build upon.

    ISB, is in still in process of building its fame (happy to see it's #15 rank), but there's a long way to go, before, it equals IIMs brand name or other top schools of the world.

  46. " Come on, it can't be better than Duke or Ross. "
    Am sorry - but since this isn't a discussion on the fine arts, "opinions" and "perceptions" need to take a back seat. And probably so do preconceived notions.

  47. Rashmi, The point you are probably missing out is that a B-School is not all about history - When I need to go to a B-School I look at how well its curriculum is suited to the changing world. A B-School derives a lot of its strength from the economy of the country - because the top business talent flocks to a B-School like ISB only when it sees considerable career progress.

    FT folks are probably in a better position to judge what is more important to various MBA grads - and they have devised a good system based on "what value a particular MBA provides".

    I am not sure what your experience with the business world is like - but when IAS officers, CAs, consultants and top technology guys from all over India are willing to give up Anderson, Booth, Berkeley - you really have to have an open mind - a mind willing to evaluate a business school endorsed by all significant corporate leaders of contemporary India. In an unbiased manner.
    A question I would like to ask you - When you heard of the 15th rank - what was your first reaction? Did you start out believing that ISB does not deserve the 15th rank - or have you really evaluated the value of an ISB MBA in India's corporate circles?

  48. It really amazes me. If future leaders can lose their cool and launch personal attack over something as trivial as a difference of opinion, it reflects more on the school than on the person they are differing with. I am not from IIM/ISB/any other bschool...but if at all I were to go back to school, I wouldnt want to have classmates who would get worked up everytime I disagreed with them.

  49. I am a non-Indian American attending ISB in the coming year for a whole host of compelling reasons.

    I find the below utterly preposterous, and it points to a real self-confidence issue on your part, in fact, your whole blog reeks of self-loathing:

    "The question however is, if you were anywhere in the world and aspiring for an international MBA would you place ISB higher than Northwestern Kellogg (#21), Duke University: Fuqua (#22) or UCLA Anderson (#29)?"

    The answer is absolutely. What, in the 21st century world we live in, is even remotely interesting about those schools?

    You rightly point out that the school does not have a PhD program until recently. However, you fail to acknowledge that the school didn't have a school until recently either.

    I challenge you to find another institution that has come as far as ISB in as short a time. I also challenge why you to try to draw a distinction between IIM's marketing and ISB's? They are two very different schools with two very different programs.

    Looking forward to a snarky reply.

  50. Jitendra - as you said,you have never been to an IIM or the ISB. So perhaps you are not aware of the kind of passion that exists in the students and the admits.
    If you don't want to go to a B-School which has people vociferously debating significant issues - it really is your choice. You can perhaps accept anyone deriding your school over anything - I can't.

    And mate about not going to ISB - HAHAHAHAHA. I can say I don't wanna go to Harvard - A school which produced someone like George Bush. Harvard mein admission mere chacha de rahein hai kya? [Is my uncle there to give me an admit to Harvard ?]

  51. Vivek: there is a fine line between debating vociferiously and attacking personally. Personal attacks dont necessarily indicate a passionate student body. In the case studies that you guys discuss, do you use words like "filth", "stupid", "rubbish", if you have to "vociferously" disagree with someone? If so, then I should thank you for opening my eyes about ISB :)

  52. Hah - So easy to take potshots at any institution in India.

    Some author which makes STUPID and RIDICULOUS statements like she has is defended - and I call her bluff on her STUPID post makes you judge ISB's student body?

    And well your comment on ISB's student body or on me is laughable - this is not a diplomatic discussion dude. This post is read by thousands - and they deserve to know the reality. I really do believe I have the right to call a STUPID POST a STUPID POST - If you don't think 300 admits out of 250000 is a STUPID STATEMENT - your choice. I do. Because by that logic IIMK is better than IIMA - they get 250000 applications for lesser seats .. ?

  53. I think this discussion has gone to a very negative and personal level, Something which has disappointed me.

    I personally feel that while we may dispute the points made in the blog, we should still not indulge in personal mudslinging, or in a derisive language regards to the person or even her points. There's a politically correct way to say things, for example, calling a point 'stupid' might be derisive, calling it 'flawed' would essentially still mean the point is wrong but would not sound degrading or insulting.

    I think we as (future)/Management grads need to learn to be politically correct while offering our differing views on a topic.

    I made a long post earlier and everyone is free to read it, I have not indulged in any personal mudslinging or berating the points made by the author, but still I believe i've made my points very clearly.

    Pertaining to the topic, Well I was actually amused the whole weekend about the analogy to Slumdog Millionaire. And I'd still want to say, That maybe Slumdog got mixed reactions in India, and some Desi movie like 'Singh is King' set new Box office records, was more popular and had a bigger brand name in the general public, It does not necessarily mean that Singh is King is a 'better' movie than Slumdog Millionaire. :-). Right Rashmi Ma'am? We all know what is the analog to Singh is King here, Don't we.


    Good morning guys!

  55. I agree I took it personal - but the credibility of the author needs to be brought out. I mean the author actually made fun of WORLD AIDS DAY and DALITS on 2 seperate occassions.

    About STUPID - come on guys. Nitin,aren't you a bit carried away by Jitendra's post? Rashmi writes a post on ISB NOT deserving what IT DOES - and I can't call her POST STUPID? This ain't some business case or political speech - this started out as mudslinging - on her part. And I will defend ISB - coz I believe in it.

  56. This is a shocking post with a very strong anti ISB tone, and for a journalist it is shameful to put such biased views forward. And that one sentence, “I have the highest regard…” doesn’t help your case.

    I am sure all Indians, including those who are proud to have ISB as their alma mater, are proud of IIMs. No one is saying IIMs are bad. If IIM cares so much about the ranking why not get into the race and prove it not just Indians but to the whole world. WHY should it not be compared with the best in the world, when from intake of students to placements, ISB is at par with them?

    I failed to understand what you meant when you said that faculty at ISB is only 82% Indian. Are you trying to imply that Indians are not worth the job, or do these Indians lack global exposure, or does being Indian reduce their competency? I feel you will find it hard to find facts to prove your stand.

    And may I dare ask what is wrong if 96% of the student community is Indian? How many students in IIT's or for that matter IIM's are of 'foreign origin'. Good thing is at least you acknowledged ISB might make that demographic shift. Though I fail to see why it is so important. I guess my impression that ISB, IS an Indian school, and SHOULD mainly cater to Indian students, is wrong. Diversity in a class can be brought even by a single person, as has been proved on your blog, where everyone but u seems to have a favorable opinion of ISB bagging the #15 spot! It is just about the selection of the right candidate, isn't it?

    You seem to think we should go the way US universities are going, not just for MBA, but for MS/PhD too, with major talent pool from outside of their country. I was stunned and my respect for American populace decreased tremendously, when I saw every single college and department having majority of foreigners as students and faculty. I DO NOT wish for the institutions of my country to reach 'global' just for the heck of it, when we have deserving candidates in our own country.

    As for the number of applicants, I guess you were trying to crack a joke! It is preposterous to compare the numbers. I can challenge you to take a survey of all MBA aspirants and see how many won't apply to ISB, even though it is in its infancy! And yes, I would prefer to join ISB over UCLA, for the simple reason that it provides me with better value for money. Compare the cost of education and the salaries offered and you should, hopefully, understand what I mean.

  57. I am digressing here but since you did bring up the issue, I will go on to the hype around Oscars. Let us stop crying about the slums that have been showcased in the movie. Every time my aircraft lands at the Mumbai airport, I see this stretch of slums, and to me it is a reality. Why, then, are we scared of showing it to the whole world? Why do we always want pretend that we are a perfect nation?
    Plus, the subject was their all along, why didn’t an Indian director make the movie. Let us all get our act together and perform first, at our best. It is my sincere belief results will follow… It will be good if we remember the message from Krishna in Bhagwad Gita.

    “Thou hast power only to act not over the result thereof. Act thou therefore without prospect of the result and without succcumbing to inaction

    The translation follows thus

    Karmani ave adhikars te
    --you have the power to act only
    ma phalesu kadachana
    --you do not have the power to influence the result
    ma karmaphal hetur bhoo
    --therefore you must act without the anticipation of the result
    ma sangostu akramani
    --without succumbing to inaction

    Agreed our films will always enter the “foreign film” category, but we need to produce the content that is worth winning. Let us get that award first in the foreign category, and then cry that we are not being given the opportunity of being nominated in the main category. No one in India needs to be told by the Oscar jury that AR Rehman is a great musician. We know it! Whether he gets the award or not, he will still rule the hearts, and not just in India. Something similar to #15 ISB,in Global MBA ranking, if you understand what I am saying.

  58. allright guys ( specially ISBians),

    i am an ISBIan myself. and i love it. loved it and will love it. but one thing i will never be proud of. and you know what, i guess people graduating out of there who have commented on blog to the extend of being anti blogger. if you say you have graduated from ISB or about to, well...

    honestly, why do you need to be defensive and be critical if yout hink ISB is great? i think it is great. i really do. i loved my year there. but i think blogger has lots of valid points. so stop behaving like kids. grow up or at least do not say you are an ISBian.

  59. My take is that this is a business school comparison - so you need to factr in stuff like short term ROI and long term expectations and ROI.

    For some people it is not right to be a graduate from a top notch B-School and direct comments against a blogger - and where I stand today I don't see any reason why I should not unveil her realities and expose her as an immensely biased-for-IIMA alumna.

    Regarding US BSchools being above ISB - it is rather disturbing to see that some people are not willing to face the contemporary realities - and are extremely biased in their "perception" of a foreign BSchool.

    "The question however is, if you were anywhere in the world and aspiring for an international MBA would you place ISB higher than Northwestern Kellogg (#21), Duke University: Fuqua (#22) or UCLA Anderson (# 29)? "

    The question I have is - would an Indian middle class girl[/guy] take a loan for 120k to 180k USD and not make money for 2 years to gain an american education or loan 15-18 lacs [ 30-40 k USD ] and go to a comparable peer group where you graduate in a year.

    For a lot of us a job at the end of an MBA is not worth a compromise - and the kind of social stature and financial stature that ISB gives you in India is above what a lot of similarly ranked BSchools give you in the US.

    Why do I not hear people questioning the rating of IE above the ISB - or CEIBS above ISB ? They seem to have made it solely on their placements and salary increments.
    Is no one proud of how ISB has the highest average GMAT score

  60. I just dropped in to see how Rashmi views things, after I stopped reading her blog 4 years back!! Not much has changed, especially her ridicule of anything outside IIT/IIM bracket!!!

    Anyways, it's her blog and she can write whatever she wants. But, I found Vivek's and Nitin's posts interesting to read. Guys, chill it! The world knows ISB cannot be compared with IIM and even if it is, the former scores a few points above even IIM-A. We can't explain this to the likes of Rashmi, for their blind love of their alma mater!

    I know great guys, appreciated generally as good managers, who couldn't clear CAT, but got selected by ISB among many other applicants. ISB process is much better and transparent than the CAT-GD-PI opaque drama, latter mainly focusing on improving the coffers of IIMs rather than the actual selection process. As someone has already mentioned, IIMs are carrying a huge baggage of socialist India while ISB is a brainchild of modern liberal India.
    First of all, it's stupid to compare the both, second, even more stupid to declare ISB less worthy than IIM, third much more stupid to compare slumdog drama with ISB!!

  61. haha
    as much as i love to read your blog , i had to notice the biased approach you have towards IIM's..
    Come on , you can do better than being a pissed of alumnus just coz
    "Mere college ki koi global ranking nahin deta :P"


  62. wao after reading the comments this post seems like "hindutva ke adhikaari , ab tumhaari baari" :P

    Chill it guys, lets not act like shiv sena nw..

  63. This comment has been removed by the author.

  64. @ Nitin Pahwa
    Yes-this is ad-hominem,but relevant.
    You havent disclosed the fact that IIM-A/B did *not* give you calls this year in spite of your CAT percentile.So that kinda dents your credibility when you suggest (not explicitly though)that you chose ISB over IIM-A.

    And pray how many current/past ISB grads have never,ever given a shot at CAT,hoping to enter IIM-A ? Inspite of your little essay here,even you wrote CAT ! Why? because you felt like busting 1300 bucks ? If you felt so strongly (as in your post here) about ISB's overarching superiority,you wouldn't have even touched the IIMs with a 50-foot barge pole,buddy!
    I'm sorry,your write-up was quite fundoo and all but patently disingenuous all the same.

    Yes - the input system could be better,but inspite of it,IIM-A still churns out top-managers nevertheless.On the other hand,I wonder if McKinsey would visit ISB if it weren't for Sugar-Daddy Rajat Gupta uncle.

    Bottomline - show me 10 people who chose ISB over IIM-A and we can stop this BS.On the other hand I *personally* know 2 dozen people who did the exact opposite - inspite of the "crumbling" infrastructure,the lousy profs(!), and the oh-so unidimensional peers.

    @Rashmi - Not exactly your most logically-watertight article but the slumdog analogy,though tenuous, felt right.

    The responses remind me of the $hit-storm that was raised after the IIPM episode.And sadly here too,except for a couple of mature rebuttals,most responses reflect extremely poorly on ISB's students & alums.I must admit,I did have a decent opinion of ISB - but I'll have to alter that;for all of ISB's tom-tommed diversity,there's little diversity in the level of immaturity here.
    And oh ! perhaps greater workex doesn't imply greater maturity after all...

  65. Pappu ,
    have you heard of Vivek Pahwa? Or the Asia Moot Business Corp? Or the Darden Business plan? And perhaps Nitin not getting a call from IIMA is not a reflection of his potential but the flawed IIM system. "Oh Nitin did not get have enough time to guess correctly on the last maths question so lets forget about interviewing him.."

    Dude IIMs are an easier place to get into for INFY and TCS benchers - have no work will go to TIME / IMS and learn about 17 ways to compute 17factorial..

    Time will tell which school goes where - you have a problem with ISB...why?? It is the only Indian institute to ever have some global ranking!
    The fact that you and other IIM alums are writing about ISB tells you how ruffled your feathers are - you guys produce good "managers"/[data analysts] and it is fine for analysis of the existing businesses - but decision making...let's not get there-you atleast need to have had a job to make strategies dude.

    It also reminds me of "Sachin did not deserve to be ICC number one as Ganguly did not qualify".

  66. Oh and I did write CAT - and would have been happy to go to the IIMs. They are a good brand - and I have heard that IIMs are increasing their average work ex to provide for the much needed peer learning. I would have been proud to go to the IIMs or ISB or any good BSchool - and you taking potshots at the ISB students and alums is reflective of the sad attitude that a few people have towards their own country and their own top institutes. IIMs reigned when they were the only worthwhile BSchools in India - but they need to evolve as IIMB [under Pankaj] is evolving.

  67. Dear Pappu,

    Its not really my style to give personal replies on a public forum, but since you've started it, I think you've done well enough to deserve a reply from me. :-). Consider urself lucky.

    So well, Yes, A and B did not give me calls, and its not coz of a single Maths question or anything as Vivek mentioned. I've done well enough to clear all the subject cut offs of all your IIMs. But I had a 68% in class 12th, coz I had typhoid during my boards. And that makes IIM Ahmedabad thinks I do not have it in me to become a top manager. Do I care? No. Because way before the Cat result was out, the day I got my ISB result (That was 20th November, and CAT was 16th November, and with the scores I had computed, and assuming IIMA's last year criteria applying to this year too, I was sure of an A call), I had mentioned to a lot of people that I'm not considering IIMs. So its not that Grapes are sore. :-). Besides, with a CAT score higher than most people than IIMA anyway, I do think I'm qualified to say that CAT is an extremely stupid exam.

    Besides, Einstein, How did u figure out that I don't have those calls? Did you calculate my calls using or data-analyzing brain or oh-so-awesome-cat-quant-clearing Maths skills? Or did you read it on public forums?? Are you implying that I've been Dishonest about my results in order to gain credibility? There's no such thing, for my very signature in Pagalguy openly claims this. And I have made this public knowledge as well. Don't forget that that's where you found this out from anyway. Nowhere on this thread have I mentioned that I got a call from IIMA and am rejecting it. And if I wanted false credibility, rest assured, you wouldn't have found out the truth anyway.

    And pray how many current/past ISB grads have never,ever given a shot at CAT,hoping to enter IIM-A ?

    Inspite of your little essay here,even you wrote CAT ! Why? because you felt like busting 1300 bucks ? If you felt so strongly (as in your post here) about ISB's overarching superiority,you wouldn't have even touched the IIMs with a 50-foot barge pole,buddy! I'm sorry,your write-up was quite fundoo and all but patently disingenuous all the same.

    Are you Really in IIMA? I mean couldn't you figure out that a person would always look for options? A person taking CAT writes XAT too. That person might seriously believe that IIMA is better than XLRI, but he still takes XAT anyway right? CAT was before ISB result came out. So dear Pappu, try thinking of this as a DI caselet. Probably you'll figure out the reason then. :). Oh and as per the seemingly smart 'ISB grads never taking CAT' argument you've got there, I know a number of people from IIT who got into companies like Schlum, Shell, Lehmann, McKinsey etc from campus, and haven't taken CAT since, but now 3 years into the job, that they think of doing MBA, guess which institute of management do they NOT consider, and which school of business they definitely apply to? 4 marks for the right answer dude.. Try this out ;-).

    Yes - the input system could be better,but inspite of it,IIM-A still churns out top-managers nevertheless.

    How do u define a 'Top Manager' ?

    On the other hand,I wonder if McKinsey would visit ISB if it weren't for Sugar-Daddy Rajat Gupta uncle.

    Now this point you've got seriously wrong mate. Moreover you seem to have lost your cool and maturity as well, the loss of which you so patronizingly pointed out in others posts.

    Okay, Lets say McKinsey visits ISB because of 'Sugar-Daddy' 'Gupta Uncle' (Wow, that is the idea of a 'Mature Discussion' of an 'IIMite'). What is the reason for BCG to come in? Or Booz allen hamilton? Or monitor group? or ATKearney?

    Oh By the way, Oliver Wyman is the 8th ranked consulting firm according to Vault Rankings, and till a year back, it visited only ONE school in India. Do u know which one? ISB. It mentioned in its PPT there, that 'IIM's have been putting a lot of pressure on us to visit their campuses'. THey ultimately succumbed, and visited IIM Bangalore too ultimately. Guess which Stupendous, top manager churning IIM they still don't visit? :-).. Again a 4 marker dude, I'm sure u'll crack it.

    Bottomline - show me 10 people who chose ISB over IIM-A and we can stop this BS.On the other hand I *personally* know 2 dozen people who did the exact opposite - inspite of the "crumbling" infrastructure,the lousy profs(!), and the oh-so unidimensional peers.

    Are you sure about the numbers? And I know people who've done the opposite, though not 10. And I really don't think 2 DOZEN have done what you said, but then you seem to have a serious flaw in your thinking anyway. I know the case of Rajat, the army guy, Who I totally respect. But if you ever read his blog, you would get to know the reasons for his decision and they were not JUST coz A was better or nething like that. Infact, ISB refunded half his fee when he took that decision. Would IIMA ever refund fee to a dropout who's going to another school?

    The responses remind me of the $hit-storm that was raised after the IIPM episode.And sadly here too,except for a couple of mature rebuttals,most responses reflect extremely poorly on ISB's students & alums.

    for all of ISB's tom-tommed diversity,there's little diversity in the level of immaturity here.
    And oh ! perhaps greater workex doesn't imply greater maturity after all...

    My o My, you consider your post an epitome of maturity? I think apart from a couple of fellows, the rebuttals were quite mature here. including mine. This one isn't. But then this is what you asked for and deserved. ;-). I think the very Post all these replies are too, reflects poorly on IIMA and its alums. And just when I thought it couldn't be any worse, your post has helped it achieve a previously undiscovered rock bottom.

    I must admit,I did have a decent opinion of ISB - but I'll have to alter that;

    Thank goodness they do not have "Pappu's Opinion" as a criterion in FT rankings. Or else we might have slipped down a few spots. Lol, heights of 'Self-righteousness'.

  68. Nitn,
    Dude your time with the replies - but they are worth the wait

  69. a little late to the party.. views from an IIM grad who graduated 10 odd yrs ago.. yep, feel like a dinosaurus here

    "On any given Sunday you're gonna win or you're gonna lose. The point is - can you win or lose like a man" Tony D'Amato in "Any Given Sunday"

    (BTW, man is not in literal sense, so ladies, please dont flame me)

    dudes and dudettes of ISB: congrats!!

    and here is something to note. learnt it from 2 global economic crises, working across the world with alumni of schools ranked 1-14 (and seeing many of them fired before non-mbas). The ISB tag will land you your first job and that is it. then you are on your own.

    witnessing the attitude shown to criticism (maybe unwarranted), i suggest you stick to the first job 'coz this attitude is not gonna take you anywhere far.

    life begins at a b-school and where you began your life typically doesnt have any bearing on what you become or what you accomplish. a few of you will do great things, majority will be mediocre and few will be downright failures. the determinant of your success wont be which school you graduated from or your CGPA. it will be your attitude, will power and doing what others wont do.

    within 3 years of passing out most of you would be doing entirely different things than you planned for. within 10 yrs, you might be applying less than 1% of what you learnt in this school. so cut the rah-rah of my school greater than yours.

    do this experiment: copy and keep your comment somewhere and read it 5 yrs from now and again at 10 yrs from now. if you are not embarassed thoroughly, you are a sure shot loser.

    the swagger of an MBA is something to be ashamed of in the current scenario. amazing that you are still fighting on who is better and claiming yourself as mature.

    Rashmi: business as usual. applaud your focus and capability of driving debates. disappointed that the crowd misses on how you have leveraged it in furthering your cause :). this debate is a cheeky proof that ISB has to go a long way to be as mature as IIM A (or atleast a few of its alumni). Kudos :)

  70. ah something to think about - rather reinforce my belief on how the traditional Indian mindset carries the baggage of 'greatness" - and tries to stick to its views, oblivious to what the world has to say.

    Your comment suggesting criticism not being taken well is understandable - but then you did grow up in a very different India. This generation is a lot more assertive and confident - beyond over-confidence for the previous gen actually. So I don't blame you for not understanding the way this gen is wired - to make the best use of a fast growing economy and opportunities you do need certain inherent attributes which come with living in an environment where you haven't seen downturns, for example.

    When 26 year olds are passionate about an institution or an organisation - it is easy to get offended, because they are not inhibited in their expression.

    I think you will agree that Rashmi (or you) cannot refrain from comparing ISB to the IIMs once you are done criticising ISB - A Cat among the pigeons?

  71. this debate is a cheeky proof that ISB has to go a long way to be as mature as IIM A (or atleast a few of its alumni). Kudos :)

    you mean to say the IIM alumnus on this (and other forums) have really been very very mature is it?

    you mean to say Rashmi has been an epitome of maturity?

  72. This comment has been removed by the author.

  73. Lot of IIM bashing in the comment and how ISB is so much better. But the fact remains that people who go to ISB were unable to get into IIMA/B/C....

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