Tuesday, January 29, 2008

Congratulations, ISB

ISB Hyderabad has been ranked # 20 among top 100 bschools in the world by the Financial Times.

Naturally, ISB students and alumni are elated while all iim egroups have been buzzing since the news broke last night with the question: "Why are we missing??"

Before I answer that question let me put down a few things about the ISB campus which impressed me when I visited it last month:

a) A high degree of enthusiasm, efficiency and commitment among the faculty and the administration. At IIMs you notice these traits among individuals, not the institute as a whole.

b) Impeccable and international standards in terms of infrastructure and maintenance. Everything is shiny, new and working!

I have already mentioned what I thought of IIM Calcutta. On a recent visit to IIM A I took a quick round of the campus and it's in need of a lot of repair and overhaul.

Of course those buildings are 40 years old so wear and tear is inevitable. But what's the excuse for general untidiness? This junk lying underneath my old dorm D5 has been there quite a while. I remember it from my visit a year before! Maybe this kind of thing has no impact on rankings but it reflects a chalta hai attitude and that translates elsewhere...

c) Amazing facilities for the MDP participants. The catering and housekeeping for the MDP centre as well as student housing and cafetarias is handled by Sarovar hotels.

The experience of staying in KLMDC at IIM A by contrast is.. sad. No reason why they cannot outsource the same! PGP students of course can't ask for the same pampering, given the far lower fee structure.

d) The international faculty ISB attracts is mind blowing. I would love to take courses with some of those profs!

Many of the ISB visiting faculty is ex-IIM. Would they be open to teaching for a few weeks at our institute? I am sure they would. But we can never sort our the whole issue of how much to pay, who will pay and most importantly convince the profs on campus this is not an indictment of their abilities. That truly, there is much for both sides to gain from each other!

e) There is a very organised effort on the part of ISB to keep in touch with its alumni, in the way an HBS or Wharton does.

No doubt IIMs also keep in touch but the effort is not spearheaded by full fledged professionals and treated as a revenue centre.

And well, I could go on but coming back to the FT ranking. I say: Well done ISB! I hold the institute in very high regard. The really commendable thing is the speed at which they've got here - it's been just 6 years!

But to get back and answer the original question: where are the IIMs? Let's first take a closer look at the FT ranking.

FT's ranking is based on:
- Weighted salary
- % salary increased before and after MBA
- Employment (% of students who found employment within 3 months of graduating)
- Research

There are other parameters but that's over 50% of the weightage.

Now open this webpage and click on each column. You will find that:

Weighted salary: ISB has the HIGHEST weighted salary among ALL bschools in the world: $169,355. The figure is calculated taking purchasing power parity into account and I surmise it's extrapolated from the average salary which ISB grads got in 2007.

Incidentally, the use of PPP salaries by FT is the main reason why 11 of the top 20 are now from outside the US.

% increase: ISB students got a 129% salary increase after graduating placing them at # 14 on this parameter.

Employment: ISB ranks # 1 on the 'employment' parameter with 100% of its students getting jobs within 3 months of graduating

Research: ISB ranks # 88 our of 100 bschools when it comes to research (calculated as the no of papers faculty published in 40 odd international academic and practicioner journals).

Wonderful. I am not sure if IIMs participated in this exercise at all. But if they were to, let's see how an IIM Ahmedabad would score on all these points
.
- The average Indian salary @ IIM A in 2007 was Rs 13.6 lakhs. Using the ISB formula (their average domestic salary was Rs 15 lakhs in 2007), the PPP weighted salary of IIM A grads translates into around $154,627.

Taking into account the average US dollar salary at IIM A in 2007 was $115,300 (accepted by 63 students out of the total 224 who took placement) the combined average PPP weighted salary would be in the region of $143,000. Placing IIM A at a respectable # 14 out of 100 on the salary front.

And so on. IIMs would rank equally high on 'employment' and salary increase, and possibly around the same in research.

It's just that nobody at IIM probably took the trouble to submit the info in the required format... Wonder if we even track data like % increase in salary before and after the MBA!

I feel a sense of deja vu, because I noted this exactly 2 years ago, when the Economist rated IIMA # 69 our of 100 bschools. With a more careful submission of data we could have ranked far higher.

The point I am making is not about who's superior. ISB is likely score higher than IIMs in areas like diversity, for example while IIMs will rate higher on the 'value for money' parameter.

It's not about 'winning' or 'losing' but making an honest attempt to compete at the highest level of the game.

The folks at ISB are obviously far more motivated to make the best efforts to score well in ranking exercises, especially by reputed agencies and publications. Whereas the IIMs are full of people who cannot even decide if rankings are important or not.

When we get ranked high, everyone is happy. When we don't, we say rankings don't matter instead of:
a) taking it as constructive criticism
b) examining the fine print in rankings and creating a strategy to improve our performance.

And that sums up the difference between IIMs and the ISB. Why we need to take the FT ranking seriously, whether we believe in rankings or do not.

We need the spirit of private enterprise at the IIMs - the desire to be the best, and be seen as the best. It's a classic case of the 'boiling frog' except the water is not yet so hot that we can't summon all our strength and jump out.

Update: As I was posting this a student @ the IIMA campus tells me the reason we don't feature at all is that we did not meet FT's qualifying criteria. Only bschools accredited by AACSB, Amba or Equis were considered.

IIM A is currently being reviewed by Equis and all I can say is: abhi tak hum kyun so rahe thhe? Well, better late than never. Hope we take it up as a challenge and make it to the top 10 next year!

39 comments:

  1. Nice article but I wonder if you realize that these ratings do have a bias component. Being private definitely gives an edge to ISB. Earlier this year they had a collaboration in FT where their professors gave lectures which were displayed on FT. Probably ISB also advertises on FT.

    I am sure IIM A, B and C can beat ISB in the criteria applied by FT. While I am at it I would like to urge you to visit IIM-C again and notify us this time. I am sure we can change your opinion about our campus :)

    ReplyDelete
  2. Rashmi, my 2 cents on this-

    Not only were ISB folks proud of this achievement, but my Indian classmates here (at HEC Paris) also jumped with pleasant surprise. This also caught attention of my non-Indian classmates and they were curious to know more about ISB. I am sure this ranking will help ISB get more international students for exchange.
    The only real parameter where ISB lags behind and might continue to do so in near future is the lack of international students which also affects its diversity - international b-schools are much more diverse in this regard. This diversity brings so much different perspectives and makes for an amazing learning experience.

    Congratulations to ISB and I hope that they start getting more international students now.

    ReplyDelete
  3. Rashmi,
    Your logic is flawed. You CANNOT compare PGP program directly with ISB program considering the amount of freshers IIMs take. You have to compare PGPX program with ISB program and then see where IIMA stands.
    IIMs also have to grapple with lot of HRD ministries intervention which ISB doesn't have to.That does waste resources. And the fact is that revenue collection of ISB wrt IIMs is much much higher. I am sure that given complete autonomy, IIMs MUST charge at least 10 lakhs for PGP course and pump that money into making a snazzy campus and get that dirt cleaned( which you were talking about).
    Rankings do matter but then other B Schools are not operating with same handicaps as IIMs are. THis is not a defence of IIMs ; just a dispassionate observation.

    BTW - I think IIMs will score much much above ISB in terms of research .

    ReplyDelete
  4. For me the simplest way to do a ranking is to ask candidates, which institute would they join if they had a final call from all the top notch schools - ISB and the IIMs included

    I have come across many people who have started preparing for ISB just because they have failed to get into the IIMs. And many of them have been successful in getting into ISB. Find me an ISB student who decided to join ISB over an IIMA and then we'll talk. And the same holds true for students goinng to second rung schools abroad.

    As for the dirt, please go check the IITs. They are equally dirty if not more and still have made a name for themselves internationally.

    As for the student mix, Manish has already pointed out the work-ex mismatch. Can we also have some information on the industry and functional area break-up for final placements? IIM grads take up enough old-economy jobs which pay a lot less than new economy jobs. Dont think the ISB guys do the same.I dont see any ISB alums in FMCG companies for example.

    And finally what about enterpreneurship? IIM junta has long been criticized for not being enterpreneurial enough; an area where they have started to improve. How has ISB fared so far?

    ReplyDelete
  5. This is very interesting! Thanks and Regards, Pankaj Peter Varma http://petervarma.blogspot.com

    ReplyDelete
  6. ISB Vs IIMs debate is like IISc vs IITs. The answer should be obvious now. BTech from IITs is more respected than Mtech from IISc.

    ReplyDelete
  7. IIM-A has pathetic "quality research" publication record

    Let me explain. I am PhD Candidate in Management in US.

    1) Remember quantity is not quality.

    2) Regarding Research publication, u can do check for your self. Go to google scholar, enter the name of every IIM-A prof and see their papers. For tenure (aka permanent job..otherwise profs are kicked out) in US and top european systems, only journal papers are considered in business schools. Note down the name of journals they have published.

    Do the same for ISB profs..Also scan the CVs of profs..(You will be suprised a lot of IIM-A profs dont even list their detailed CVs online coz they have no decent research to show.)

    3) Once u have noted the names and their journal pubs, do a search on internet for list of top tier journals by every business area such as Management Science, OB, finance, accunting etc. FT, BWeek has a list..Lot of top US schools have created these lists.

    Check the publication record of IIM-A profs and ISB ones and see their record in last 3 years and life time...I predict that 88+ profs at IIM-A might have max 1-3 in "top tier journals" publications cumulative in past 3 yrs (which I also doubt)..while ISB has 5-10 pubs for faculty size of 19..

    What would it say ?

    That 19 resident profs at ISB were >>>> productive than 88 profs in IIM-A in quality research in last 3 years.

    Then u will realize how bad IIM-A profs in "world class research".

    IIMA has fooling desis abt research coz aam aadmi has no idea what "reseach quality" means and publication in top tier journals..

    One paper in top tier journal is considered much more important than 50 papers in no name journals.

    I hope it make clear about "research" productivity.

    Once IIM-A research score is computed, IIM-A will not even come in top 200 in FT parameters on research. Even ISB is #88 in research coz of small resident strength. But that is going to improve as they are ramping "quality research" faculty.

    Look at faculty hiring page at ISB and IIM-C (IIMA and IIMB dont even list..even they shout abt rooftop abt shortage) and note the world of difference in terms of expectations of faculty.

    Concluding, who will do "quality research" in govt institution at 30k starting salary and permanent job?

    If I am a future prof at IIMs (if I return to India) I will work my ass off to make money in consulting through the name and rents derived from monopolistic prestige of IIM brand.... coz at 30k I dont make enuf money.

    If I am a future prof at ISB I might get fired in 3-6 years if I dont publish in top tier journal. This is the beauty of tenure track.

    BTW, I would love to see IIM in FT rankings to see where they rank overall and in research parameter.

    ReplyDelete
  8. very intresting ...but its unfortunate that we end up comparing IIMs and ISB here.I believe they are two different world altogether ...IIMs have a different approach towards management education and they are different from those of ISB.Lets not forget thats ISB is a product the contributions from several IIMs grads...

    ReplyDelete
  9. I am an ISB grad and just wanted to convey my appreciation to Rashmi for being generous in congratulating ISB. It is really in contrast to the otherwise "insecure" behaviour demonstrated by many other IIM grads, who immediately come to the defence of the IIMs at the slightest provocation.
    I am an aspiring entrepreneur and hope to start my venture very soon. And I can vouch that when I am going to evaluate potential hires for my company, I am not going to distinguish an IIM or ISB or even a Jhumri Tallaiya grad. I am going to hire someone who adds VALUE to my company, whoever it may be. So, finally it boils down to that - how good YOU are and what is it that YOU can deliver. And if IIM (or even ISB) grads think they are so good, let that be reflected in their work and achievements rather than through posting such rabid remarks whenever the topic of ISB comes up. C'mon guys. Grow up. Once you come out of your small dorm rooms, you will realize that the world is much bigger. The bigger battle is not IIM v/s ISB, but India versus US or India versus China. At least, thats the way I look at it.

    ReplyDelete
  10. Hey this is great news for people like me, who've flunked CAT thrice and are now looking towards GMAT to end our woes.

    ReplyDelete
  11. As an ISB grad , I keep finding myself in the middle of these raging ISB Vs IIMs debate all the time. I used to put up a fight , but have now realised the futility of doing so. I think there is so much that the two institutes can learn from each other ... After all ISB must be doing something right if they figured on that list ... And I think this article has done a great job of pointing out some of those things

    ReplyDelete
  12. There is an aspect of Management Education that is wholly missed - What do the young graduates do with the double digit lakhs that they get as salary? So much is being spoken about how to get them but so little about how to spend them? Definitely not fair!

    Destination Infinity.

    ReplyDelete
  13. Hi Rashmi!

    I feel bad about not having any prior info of your visit to ISB. I would have loved to meet you on your visit to our campus (am a student of the current batch at ISB)

    Do let us know whenever you plan to visit ISB or Hyderabad next. Have much to share with you on an institution you made (in)famous, a few years back.

    Really admire you for that story and for the present one.

    ReplyDelete
  14. Hi Rashmi,

    I think the only B school in India Accredited by ASsociation ofMBA is MDI, Gurgaon and wonder if MDI has participated in the ranking survey.

    My opinion on ISB vs. IIM debate is IIMs has far gr8 brand value than ISB. Why?

    You can create a Abhishel Bachchan with a lot of money but To create a Amitabh Bachchan or SRK for that matter requires something that money cannot do... :)

    Regards,
    Amit

    ReplyDelete
  15. excellent points though I might be biased considering my husband was in one of the earliest batches of ISB.... :)

    ReplyDelete
  16. Firstly,

    Let me start with the caveat that I am an ISB alum and thus will be biased in my opinions.

    To give a background: I am a typical ex-IIT/techie male with around 4.5 years of pre MBA experience - post which I got bored of work and decided to do an MBA. I am currently a VP at the proprietary trading desk of a leading global investment bank and based out of Mumbai.

    I will give my two cents about the 'When the CAT is away, the ISBs are at play' argument - most folks in my IIT batch of 98 or batches that graduated around the time had been bitten by the software bug - if you remember, the tech boom at that time was at its peak and an IIT degree was a sure shot path to landing a rich and glamorous software job in India or in the US - the ones who were more academically oriented were keen to do their MS - hence CAT at that time for graduating IIT-ans was not the biggest deal out there. The general notion, right or wrong, was that a plush job in a leading techie firm in the US or India would give me the same starting salary (or greater) as a job post CAT and I would not have to waste two years in the process.

    Of course, times have changed and the IT scene has been commoditized - MBA at a leading B school is clearly now a better option. My sole point is that during our time, many of us had the luxury of not having to consider CAT seriously - and thus an argument that an IIT-an, with GMAT scores in the mid or high 700s, will not be able to clear CAT seems slightly erroneous- rather, it could be argued, wrongly maybe, that a large sample of CAT successful's are very smart people but those who had the desperation and need to clear CAT - as they did not have the comfort of an IIT degree to get them a good job post engineering.

    Bottomline is: Let's not try to play the 'insecure' card here and be a bit more mature. Many colleagues from my IIT days and at my workplaces are IIM alumni who are simply brilliant - similarly, I have met a bunch of extremely smart guys at ISB and for the first time in my life, met people from very dissimilar backgrounds as mine - which has been a great educational experience. Around 30-35% of our ISB batches are IIT-ans and the rest are comprised of a cross section of bright people from various sections of the educational spectrum - people with stellar GMAT scores, people who have ranked in the top 50-100 in the IIT JEE exams, CA top rankers, post graduates from top notch American schools after graduating from the IITs and otherwise, people from the army, navy and even a deep sea diver...! We are a new school but a talented one.

    Let's all try to coexist and make the world a little less claustrophobic!

    Peace

    S.

    ReplyDelete
  17. Firstly,

    Let me start with the caveat that I am an ISB alum and thus will be biased in my opinions.

    To give a background: I am a typical ex-IIT/techie male with around 4.5 years of pre MBA experience - post which I got bored of work and decided to do an MBA. I am currently a VP at the proprietary trading desk of a leading global investment bank and based out of Mumbai.

    I will give my two cents about the 'When the CAT is away, the ISBs are at play' argument - most folks in my IIT batch of 98 or batches that graduated around the time had been bitten by the software bug - if you remember, the tech boom at that time was at its peak and an IIT degree was a sure shot path to landing a rich and glamorous software job in India or in the US - the ones who were more academically oriented were keen to do their MS - hence CAT at that time for graduating IIT-ans was not the biggest deal out there. The general notion, right or wrong, was that a plush job in a leading techie firm in the US or India would give me the same starting salary (or greater) as a job post CAT and I would not have to waste two years in the process.

    Of course, times have changed and the IT scene has been commoditized - MBA at a leading B school is clearly now a better option. My sole point is that during our time, many of us had the luxury of not having to consider CAT seriously - and thus an argument that an IIT-an, with GMAT scores in the mid or high 700s, will not be able to clear CAT seems slightly erroneous- rather, it could be argued, wrongly maybe, that a large sample of CAT successful's are very smart people but those who had the desperation and need to clear CAT - as they did not have the comfort of an IIT degree to get them a good job post engineering.

    Bottomline is: Let's not try to play the 'insecure' card here and be a bit more mature. Many colleagues from my IIT days and at my workplaces are IIM alumni who are simply brilliant - similarly, I have met a bunch of extremely smart guys at ISB and for the first time in my life, met people from very dissimilar backgrounds as mine - which has been a great educational experience. Around 30-35% of our ISB batches are IIT-ans and the rest are comprised of a cross section of bright people from various sections of the educational spectrum - people with stellar GMAT scores, people who have ranked in the top 50-100 in the IIT JEE exams, CA top rankers, post graduates from top notch American schools after graduating from the IITs and otherwise, people from the army, navy and even a deep sea diver...! We are a new school but a talented one.

    Let's all try to coexist and make the world a little less claustrophobic!

    Peace

    S.

    ReplyDelete
  18. Fortune hotels are expanding fast with the opening of new properties across the country. The rooms of these hotels are well equipped with all the modern amenities, which a traveler is looking for. Recently Fortune has opened new properties in Navi Mumbai, Kolkata and Pune. These business hotels in Navi Mumbai, hotels Kolkata and Pune hotels are all set to be the preferred destination for the discerning business traveler. These hotels in Navi Mumbai, Kolkata hotel and Pune hotels offer a choice of F&B outlets also. The services in these hotels are offered in a warm atmosphere. The traveler would certainly enjoy his stay in Fortune amidst all the facilities and would not look in for any other option in future. The starting price of the rooms in Pune is Rs 8000/-, Navi Mumbai is Rs 8500/-, and Kolkata is Rs 6000/-.

    ReplyDelete
  19. Fortune hotels are expanding fast with the opening of new properties across the country. The rooms of these hotels are well equipped with all the modern amenities, which a traveler is looking for. Recently Fortune has opened new properties in Navi Mumbai, Kolkata and Pune. These business hotels in Navi Mumbai, hotels Kolkata and Pune hotels are all set to be the preferred destination for the discerning business traveler. These hotels in Navi Mumbai, Kolkata hotel and Pune hotels offer a choice of F&B outlets also. The services in these hotels are offered in a warm atmosphere. The traveler would certainly enjoy his stay in Fortune amidst all the facilities and would not look in for any other option in future. The starting price of the rooms in Pune is Rs 8000/-, Navi Mumbai is Rs 8500/-, and Kolkata is Rs 6000/-.

    ReplyDelete
  20. An awesome posts and comments -

    I am surprised at the way we are comparing. Can a 6 year kid fight a 30 year old man. My guess is - it will surely be difficult.

    Both ISB and IIMs are top notch Indian schools. Rather than a competition with ISB, I guess IIM A should compete with international schools. IIM A should not consider a six year old school even worth talking about!!! The reason everyone is talking about ISB is - there is something there.

    "For me the simplest way to do a ranking is to ask candidates, which institute would they join if they had a final call from all the top notch schools - ISB and the IIMs included" - When I joined IIT seven years back people were blindly choosing it because that is what other high school guys were doing. I asked my cousin brother last summer - 'Why don't you try for an IIT'? His response was, "I don't think it suits me". Going for A particular b-school is a very personal choice. Its irrational to rate schools from a student's perspective. It can be biased by peer view, social view and many other views which can all be purely non-sense when you look from your retinas.

    Bottomline is - IIM should not do what Yahoo did to Google - "Discounting abilities without judging".Being pioneers is good, but being leaders is different. ISB has made it to FT top 20 and we should appreciate it. I used to discount ISB an year back - now I am seriosly thinking about it.

    An unbiased view from a simple undergrad.

    kapil354@gmail.com

    ReplyDelete
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  23. 現在來談談
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