Monday, November 21, 2005

It's not about sex

"If we are accepting pre-marital sex, we are making youths cannibals"

"It should stopped, no debate required"

"Yesh vaishyavati hai... videsh se layi gayi gandagi hai. "

These are just a few of the comments SMSed by viewers which scrolled on the NDTV India ticker during a heated debate on Pre Marital Sex.

A topic that is suddenly all the more topical with Khushboo's views being attacked. And poor Sania Mirza getting dragged into the controversy.

Approximately 40% of NDTV India's viewers appeared violently opposed to the very idea of pre-marital sex, while 60% opined it was an individual choice. Pooja Bhatt, summing up "pro" view, said: "Main apne vichaar aap par nahin thop rahi hoon - toh aap apne vivhaar mujh par kyun thopna chahte hain."

Let me be free to hold my views - you are free to hold yours. And herein lies the crux of the issue.

It's not about sex, really. And it's not a cut and dried Indian sanskriti vs Western culture kind of debate either. We are a society in transition. People - and young people in particular - are redefining their personal value systems and the Old Order is feeling threatened.

A decade ago, the 'hip' young Indian was like a Michael Jackson, desperately trying to be White. But we've evolved since then and realised aping the West is uncool.

Someone once coined the term 'coconut' to describe young people of 'Asian' descent in the UK. Meaning they were Brown from the Outside but White from the Inside.

A similar generation of 'coconuts' now exists in India. These are young people who will embrace Indian food, Indian clothes, Indian music. The external and interesting paraphernalia of our culture are gladly accepted.

However the "white on the inside" bit is about being increasingly individualistic. About deciding what is wrong or right for oneself. So in the case of pre-marital sex what most 'coconuts' believe is not that it is inherently right or wrong, but that it is for each person to decide.

On the other hand you have the White from the Outside but Brown from the Inside brigade. Let's call them 'cappucinos'. On the surface they have adopted certain 'Western' things - they will happily wear jeans, not dhotis and wolf down pizzas and burgers.

But beneath the layer of white foamy froth, they are deeply "brown".

In such a value system, the writ of Society or 'samaaj' prevails over an individual choices and desires. And it's not just about pre-marital sex. It's also about who you should marry (ideally someone from your own caste), when you should marry (preferably around 25, definitely by 30!), having children ("arre, shaadi ko do saal ho gaye - koi issue nahin hai?) and so on and so forth.

Whose life is it anyways
The whole debate about pre-marital sex, for example, does not take into account the idea that some people may not want to marry. Or maybe they do but only if they meet the 'right' person and not because they are past their 'sell by' date.

Must such a person promise to remain celibate all their life? "Underage" sex and pre-marital sex are thus not one and the same thing.

And clearly, many of the young people who - in theory - support pre-marital sex aren't necessarily doing it 'without thinking'. At least, they're waiting for the right time, place and person.

According to the Durex Sex Survey 2005 Indians lost their virginity at an average age of 19.8 years as compared to 17.3 years (the average age when people had sex for the first time worldwide).

Another pertinent question in the Indian context may be how many people choose to remain virgins until they marry. These could include both the 'coconuts' and the 'cappucinos'. But the two may make their choices for different reasons.

Coconuts may not have sex before marriage but reserve the right to do, should they meet someone special. The other brigade will, on principle, not have anything to do with 'sex before marriage'.

Sex Surveys
All three major news weeklies (India Today, Outlook and The Week) have annual sex surveys. So do the likes of Durex.

A few points to note - the Durex survey was apparently done through the website which means it was not a random sample representative of the general population

Then there's the the touching belief that people will answer questions about their sex life correctly. I have my doubts, although the stats regarding India are conservative enough to sound 'real', unlike the surveys by Indian magazines!

Globally, people have had an average number of nine sexual partners. The Turks have had more partners than any other country (14.5), Indians have had the fewest sexual partners (3)

But I also wonder what 'losing one's virginity' means to Indians. Would it necessarily mean going all the way?

I ask this because the term 'proposal' has its own strange connotation. A college student saying "He proposed me" is not about getting married. It's agreeing to be someone's steady gf/ bf and go to the movies!

Similarly, there would be plenty of young people who will kiss and cuddle but don't 'go all the way'. In fact the Brown on the Inside brigade will often do everthing "but that" and justify to themselves that "I didn't actually do it".

Getting back to the original issues raised by Khushboo. It's not about advocating what's right or wrong but just acknowledging that people do have sex before marriage - even in India. So if you have made that decision, be safe about it. Better safe, than sorry!

P.S. Please, no Khushboo style protests to this post! On my part, I won't be making any Sania style retractions.


  1. True,dunno what's the hullaboo all about. As if Khusboo or Sania's stamp would make the youth go ahead with it!!

    Besides being a very very personal choice,it also highlights the 'pseudo libealisation' of the Indian mindset.

    True liberalisation would have arrived when each one was free to say what he/she wants to. And no,I dont think it'll 'erode our values'

  2. LOVED your post. As a coconut (which has rather offensive conotations by the by), I am constantly being labeled "un-indian" . I knew that my views and notions bred in Delhi in a particular socio-economic class were not representative of the population, but only recently have I felt repeatedly labeled as "un-indian". Is that just me or are we hearing that invective more and more?
    because I am as INDIAN as the next person, its just that MY india may look and feel a little different from yours.

  3. "safe" as far as i know there is nothing that assures 100% safe sex.For eg the movie salaam namaste where You find Saif insisting on protection and finally even after protection ..... the movie speaks better.As far as i know most Pre-marital sex takes place due to Peer Pressure where once again noone speaks much about safety.Most indian parents dont speak about it too considering it a taboo and finally become helpless in dealing with aftermath related problems.Abstaining or refraining from it pre - marriage would be a wiser decision and a lot more safer for one from contracting sexually transmitted deseases,unwanted pregnancies and emotional wounds.

  4. Someone wise had said,"Humans are the only set of people who can justify whatever they do or do not do."
    Look around and see how Americans are justify wars, how Indians are justifying torture in Kaashmir and naxalite affected areas, how Sania justfied what she says, how HINDUS justify going 'saat samundar paar' so frequently and not doing 'shudhikaran' even once.So, when Khushboo said what she had said , she could justify it and so does the other set of people.The point which matters is whether there is going to be any difference in the society or the government .No!Except that at the TV Studios and the press conferances, no one is seriously making an effort to educate the Indians about the sex(I meant sex education:)), HIV prevention ,etc etc.
    The moderates and the liberals can be either the coconuts or the capuccinos.I have seen the 're-avtar-isation' of a liberal into a radical and vice a versa,when they face situattions.A very dear uncle of mine became a hindu zealot overnight, while his daughter(MTech and Phd from IIT) wanted to marry a christian dalit( IIM Bangalore passout);who earlier advocated such intermingling of races and intercaste marriages.
    So, it is good that we discuss, but it is very hard to comprehend the realty when the individual faces it in the face.
    So Guys What I says" Look around and change your heart." Ezactly.

  5. >>I ask this because the term 'proposal' has its own strange connotation. A college student saying "He proposed me" is not about getting married. It's agreeing to be someone's steady gf/ bf and go to the movies!

    That pisses me off ALWAYS. I hate it when people keep saying 'he proposed', 'she proposed' and 'I love you' to somebody they know only by face. People are psychologically very immature.

    This post might get over 100 comments. No better way to funnel traffic than write about sex.

    Sex is OKAY, as long as you are physically and psychologically ready, you are willing, the partner is willing;age, relationship, gender and other parameters no bar.

  6. "i might not agree with what u ve to say but i'll fight till my dying breath to protect ur right to say it"

    u r damn right when u say we r a society in transition... but i think it is not as black and white as "coconut" and "cappucinos" rather each one of us is a different shade of grey...
    and i would also like to say that it is infact about sex as sex and religion are two of the most politically sensitive issues in our country or any country for that matter... all of us seem to have our own version of rights and wrongs about sex and god and we just cant accept any other point of view... we are increasingly becoming intolerant to the idea of tolerance...

  7. The discussion of Pre-Marital sex being good/bad/right/wrong is based on the assumption that Marriage is about sex. Is It?

    How ironic, that in the country that wrote the book on sex, we cannot have a mature & intelligent discussion without classifying it into mindset categories of Coconuts & Capuccinos. Expected a much much more mature outlook from your blog.


  8. "P.S. Please, no Khushboo style protests to this post! On my part, I won't be making any Sania style retractions."

    --> You are taking yourself way too seriously there. FYI, Khushboo didn't protest, it was the people of Tamil Nadu who protested against Khushboo's comments. Of course, the people of TN are fully entitled to their right to protest. As we go through this debate, it is important to realize that it is a privilege to be able to "protest" and not merely a right. For example, our commie bretheren order a Bharat Bandh as and when they feel an itch in their loins. Try protesting in one of the many Sharia/Communist adminsitered countries and see how it goes.

  9. "..the discussion of Pre-Marital sex being good/bad/right/wrong is based on the assumption that Marriage is about sex. Is It?"

    ---> NO!, I wonder what drove you to that conclusion.

  10. @ saurabh
    "we are increasingly becoming intolerant to the idea of tolerance..."

    -> Not really, it is just that more debate is being generated and the number of people voicing their opinion has increased due to the increase in avenues. Pre-marital sex always existed in India and it exists as of today. It is just that we have begun talking about it now. Thanks to the socialist style of Nehruvian governance, we have been fed a load of BS in a single direction. Now that the communication is getting bi-directional, certain sections are feeling the pressure.

  11. If pre-marital sex is a personal choice then once married should the girl tell her husband about her having slept with 3 men before sleeping with him now.If the man has never experimented before what would be his reaction? Do you think that this marriage will last? Or do you think she should keep it a secret all through her life-what happens if the man comes to know of it mid-way.Do answer this

  12. I feel that we have people of all kinds-there are people who lie and people who are honest-it is their choice. But what is right-being honest isn't it? similarly some people may feel that pre-marital sex is okay, some may say it is not okay-they can have individualistic views. But then still -pre-marital sex is not the right

  13. Sorry this is my last. And who said marriage is not about sex-it may not be ONLY about sex but sex is definitely an important part of is imortant for a healthy married life. And if there is no sex one can well be sure that there is an extra marital relationship cooking somewhere. Marriage without a healthy sex life is sure of meeting the dead end. And if it was not about why would he have the first night right on the first night-cant it wait?

  14. vasanthi emmanuel said...
    "If pre-marital sex is a personal choice then once married should the girl tell her husband about her having slept with 3 men before sleeping with him now.If the man has never experimented before what would be his reaction? Do you think that this marriage will last?"

    AKS :
    It might last, depends on the chemistry between the two. I am sure she would want to reveal that (if she will anyway) much before they go to bed together). I guess if the man can't accept that - they will not marry. Otherwise atleast the fact that she slept with four others should not be the reason for broken marriage.

    vasanthi emmanuel said...
    "Or do you think she should keep it a secret all through her life-what happens if the man comes to know of it mid-way."

    AKS :
    Thats a possible option as the post from Rashmi says - its a matter of personal choice not wrong or Right. If the man comes to know the girl has a situation to handle (depending on how he reacts) which she must - a price everybody pays eventually for not sharing enough.

    vasanthi emmanuel said...
    "And who said marriage is not about sex-it may not be ONLY about sex but sex is definitely an important part of marriage."

    Right !!
    But, I think the person commenting on this was just suggesting that - one does not have to marry to have sex for the first time (although some of us might choose to do so).
    Think about it - its not as preposterous at it might seem to you on first reading.

  15. Rashmi, you are constantly writing on controversial topics (IIPM, CAT/IIM, about indore's chota shahar image).

    Seems like this blog is coming to an end. think about it :)

  16. Should Indian culture be Pro or Anti premarital sex...Kalidasa says 'Indulge yourself heart and soul in the joys of sex untill you find real salvation doesn't lie that way.
    So it's all depends on a Cocunut or a Cappucino. It's all upto you...

  17. Wonderful post Rashmi!

    @ kaho pyaare

    I am sure Rashmi is not writing for anyone but for her. There is a lot of readers to this blog who like whatever she writes irrespective of whether they agree or disagree with her views. But she doesn't need to write to please each and everyone here...She just like most of the bloggers must be writing for whatever strongly she feels about. So if you want, you can come and read and leave your comments but don't make unnecessary conclusions about her blog becoming obsolete soon. That is none of (y)our business...May be your blog could be a place where you can host any non-controversial topics? Consider that!

  18. hey could you add my blog to the "Blogs I Read" list. Appreciate your help ;-)

  19. How dare you corrupt the youth of our society, Rashmi?

    *throws a chappal at you*

  20. good post...
    india will grow one day...
    c yaa

  21. it's bloody stupid, isn't it, all this fuss abt such a simple thing?pre-marital sex might be, i believe, actually good for a marriage...think abt it.....what happens if a couple realise after marriage that they are sexually incompatible?t'would lead to a lot of trouble, messy divorces and all...marriage is a major decision, if not the most important, of one's life...and, in techspeak ;), all parameters should be evaluated before making the decision...

  22. I agree that sex is a confusing issue for kids today. A lot of young tweens/teens do it to be accepted in their peer group, to be popular or for a variety of other reasons, almost none of which involve 'sex' at all.

    It's sad. And must be confusing for parents trying to deal with it. The point is, you can't ban it away. You can't parade outside an actresses house and hope it helps. More likely than not, your teenage daughter is sneaking her boyfriend into the house while you're out speaking about moral vice.

    We should recognize that curiosity is normal and provide education on what sex is, and what are good reasons for having sex and what are bad reasons for it.

    I read a handout given out in school once that said "Don't do it if the two of you cannot laugh about elbows knocking and funny noises" :-)

    As for premarital sex, its nobody's business! Stay out of it moral brigade

  23. Great post! I found this post via Kaushal Karkhanis. Two notes...

    First, I think that the Durex survey is totally biased towards a very sexually-active, modern population. It would be like asking visitors to the Bacardi website whether they think martinis at lunch are a good idea or not.

    Second, you might want to check out the book A Return to Modesty by Wendy Shalit. There are some good insights here towards American values possibly returning to a more conservative focus one day.

  24. The fact of the matter is this: you are free to exercise your will as long as it does not interfere with someone else’s will. No one likes their free will insulted.

    Another fact of the matter is this: Nether can anyone promote anything nor can anyone stop anything. Things are happening. People believe and do what they want to believe and do. So there is no point debating over it.

    If people debate that thing A is bad, not that people will stop doing it. If people propose thing B is good not that all people will start doing it. Everyone knows what’s good for them.

    Everything is cyclic. Waves come and go. Things happen to pass. People believe something then they forget. Civilizations rise to fall. Liberals want to become conservative, conservatives want to become liberal.

    My two cents.

  25. i believe its a very delicate issue and the views of the people of different classes of the society is entirely different... and that's what raises the controversy.

  26. I dont think Sex and Marriage is fundamentally related. Sex is art of love making and you can have sex with someone you "love". I believe in morals so I believe that sex without love is immoral and when in love is best left on the couple to decide.

  27. i would rather approach this matter in simple way. we, as humans express our feelings by various means. sex should be ideally an expression of love, when there is no love, there cannot be a perfect sexual relationship, leaving behind the question of Premarital or Postmarital. When i indulge in sexual activity without a pure heartly love for my mate, it is inferior to human nature, i would use word animalistic. and remember that Love finds way beyond the Sex, it is not love which contains itself in boundaries of this body-mind complex. so, in my understanding, and in the context of many ancient indian systems, sex comes in way of ideal love, and Lovers passes that phase to find permanent union, which doesnot require physical union. I hope, it was simple. but simple is the word Love : just start loving somebody, try to be true and you will find you expand yourself beyond limitations, and in that ectasy touch infinite.

    coming to question of pre/post marital sex, if you are in Love, there is no question of pre/post or sex/no sex. you are beyond that.

    hope it helps.

  28. Just wanted to tell you that I enjoyed reading some of your posts... no wonder you're an editor :)

    Came across your blog from the blog dedicated to Manjunath BTW...

  29. Although your description of a coconut fits my profile well, I dislike the label. The rub is the assumption you make about whiteness and brownness. What is Brownness (or Indianness)? Is it defined by the popular opinion in Bangalore? Or Bihar?

    I would hate being labeled a coconut, simply because that implies that I am white on the inside. I see nothing white about being a true liberal. It's a quality that has existed in most countries at some point in history or the other. I may have more in common with the ancients in India than whites in America.

    Similarly, I would hate for the anti-Khushboo protestors to be labeled cappucinos, simply because that implies that intolerance is very much brown/Indian. That is something with which I vehemently disagree.

    As for the brouhaha over premarital sex, I want to people to ask themselves, one question: Who invented marriage? My answer is simply, mankind. If you agree with me, you must also agree that like all other creations of man, marriage, too is for mankind's convenience and must remain so.

    Isn't it ironic that while our society not just sanctions but encourages marriage without/before love, it will get easily disgusted by an expression of love where love actually exists, simply because it is without/before marriage, a man-made convenience.

    If one disagrees with the premise that marriage was invented by mankind, the only other possible creator could be God. If that is the case, I give up.

  30. I am not sure if it as simple as having a choice and exercising it. At the risk of sounding feminist(although that is not the intent, its more like realist), I would say there really is no choice unless you really really dont care two hoots. That "H" word might be just about two cms, but if not found it can do enough to wreck a relationship. The simple fact is that you can't tell with men, but you can with women. It is obvious!And I am not holding it against the males of this world. Its just a fact. Which you cant overlook. It is a testimonial which at the very least stamps you as being of reasonably good character. Even if we consider an open-minded person so to say, it will still rankle him, especially if he himself has been chaste. Besides, how do you think this works? If you kno that you are going to wait forever for the right guy, and your definition of a right guy includes someone who would be objective about this, then good for you. But if unfortunately(or maybe not), you have to go through the rigours of an arranged marriage, when exactly is the right time to tell? During the first meeting, certainly not I would say. During courtship, when you could risk ruining it when all the other logistics seemed to be in place? On the first night- so that you could boast of a 24 hour marriage too? or some time later on- which could leave you both feeling bitter forever? or probably never- and risk him finding out through other means, so that you have a la Astitva? Isn't just not 'doing it' so much the easier? In short- my point is I dont know of too many men who would be objective about this, while women might find it just a wee bit easier to forgive cos first, they are less likely to find out(!), and second they are more likely to consider a host of other factors before calling it off(for their own sake!). And I am not just talking about the average reasonably educated housewife, I am also including the well-educated, can-stand-on-our-own-feet kind of women.

  31. oh man, there is something seriously wrong with people who think they can abuse a lady because she decided to speak her mind. we need more women like khushboo (never really enjoyed her movies, but there you go, people surprise you). what friggin law did she break, by the way, that landed her in jail? shame on the people in tamil nadu (the women, especially) who threw garbage at her. to think that a country with some world-class eroticism in it's heritage would end up in such a sad state of sexual repression. indians are human too, you know, we have the same needs as anyone else!

  32. what about old indian thought on Brahamacharya, sati and so on... if we practice them in a new upgraded way, there won't be any issues old and young will be together happy.
    pre maritial or extra maritial..hymenoplasty... leave everything how about using it as the only means of secondary creation or procreation.
    Impulse of secondary pleasure due to constant rubbing on some specialsed glands and hormone activity should not be made a factor for heated debate in country like India .
    sex! is it really required for any other purpose otherthan bringing babies to this dumb world?
    if we abstain what we lossing.
    in marriage its required we all know, or its a wrong notion that we have in our mind that "enjoy every bit of life, get a taste before you die before its too late" lossing virginity,is not a big issue for educated or uneducated women now a days nor a man do cares about it. please think over it once again .

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