Naveen is a regular reader of this blog and here's his (somewhat belated) 2 cents on my post of 4th Sept 2008, 'Ivy league goes the IIM way - II'.
Just for background, I did my full-time, MBA from a US (Purdue) university in 2002, ranked generally 23/24 as per US News, after working in India for 3 years in software.
Somehow, many students/professionals in India are aware of only the Ivy Leagues and the associated high fees of doing MBA from US (Ivy/non-Ivy) or Europe b-schools. This acts as a deterrent to them and they give up on their dream of doing an MBA from
abroad.
Based on my experience, I can say, that US schools ranked from 20-30 are also pretty good and they have a very exhaustive program. Many State schools like Purdue, Penn State, Ohio State, Michigan State, Maryland fall in these categories and they all are very good schools (not only in MBA but also have strong Engineering schools) plus the added advantage of lower fees and high probability of getting assistantships (like teaching to undergrads) that reduces the fees a lot plus offers monthly stipend. (could end up being cheaper than studying at ISB or IIMs).
All these schools have very high-class facilities and offer an amazing MBA experience of good coursework & projects, case competitions (even funding going to other US schools case completion, if you qualify), doing projects/cases with other departments and collaborating with them, to develop business case for their technical products, ample networking and discussions etc.
The MBA program at Purdue offers a very diverse class (~40% internationals) and is very strong in Operations and Corporate Finance. One big advantage in these schools is the relative smaller class size (~150 per batch) as compared to 400-600 students at the Ivy Leagues and other top 20 schools. So, a smaller class size offers more opportunity to grow and reduces chances of being lost!!!
We had approx 10 people from India (from varied backgrounds of Engg, Commerce etc.) and almost all, had an assistantship from 1st semester, that reduced everybody’s tension of funding for fees and other living expenses and also the risk of ‘what-if I do not get a job in the US’!!! Most of them had arranged for bank loans from India to cover 2 yrs (and got them easily) but after getting an assistantship within few days of landing @ Purdue, they did not need the Indian loan money.
As for jobs after MBA, most of the Indian batch got jobs by graduation. It was a struggle for a couple of Indian guys due to the tough job market at that time and because they were trying to change their stream (like moving from Marketing pre-MBA experience to Finance and similar).
The visa issue also becomes a headache for some students (Indian, Chinese, Koreans, South Americans etc.) as many companies, would not do sponsorship for MBAs (even though they would sponsor for Engg students from same school). So, pre-MBA work experience plays a major role in post MBA job experience and I would suggest that people get minimum 2-3 years of work experience, before going for a US MBA, due to the job factor plus (my opinion) you tend to learn more, once you have had a solid job experience.
The negative side of doing MBA from 20-30 ranked schools is that your chances (if you want to) of getting into Investment Banking (especially) or Consulting would be reduced, as the big names IB firms (whichever are left now!!) don’t come to these schools and Consulting firms 1st priority is the top 15 schools (from where they pick a lot of students).
Another reason is location of some of these schools, as they are in Mid-West, which is not the hub of IB (New York) or Technology firms (Silicon Valley), but that in no way implies people do not get jobs in East or West coast. It's just that, general tendency of companies is go to schools where they are based out of, or of students, is that they want to find a job in the region, where they studied.
In case of Purdue (which is 2 hrs from Chicago), people from my batch of 150 got jobs all over the US but mainly in Mid-West, and in all sectors (mainly corporate finance, operations or marketing), with very few in IB or consulting. So, prospective students should keep in find their career stream, in choosing the school (stronger the school in that stream, more companies to recruit for that stream) or region of school.
All, I can say, is my MBA from Purdue, was one of the best experience for me and gave me lot of exposure to people from different cultures and a very good educational experience (plus also a good job :)
Thanks, Naveen!
In other MBA related news, the IIMs sold 2.9 lakh CAT forms this year, which is a new record. Wonder if the numbers would have been so high if the markets and I-banks had collapsed a couple of months earlier!
Showing posts with label GMAT. Show all posts
Showing posts with label GMAT. Show all posts
Monday, September 29, 2008
Thursday, September 04, 2008
Ivy league goes the IIM way - II
So Indian students with the right credentials and less or even no work experience have a decent chance of getting into a good US bschool. But as Suze Orman would say, "Can you afford it?" It can be tougher than you think. A recent grad shares his experience:
I graduated from a top-20 school (which isn't an Ivy League by the way, but then when we were talking Stanfords and GSBs, I guess a non-ivy isn't necessarily a deal breaker). My decision to pursue an MBA wasn't economically motivated - I was doing pretty well back home, and just wanted to try something else, and I didn't know what that something else was supposed to me.
Coming to America wasn't as regrettable as going in for an MBA was. The two years were real tough. The school didn't guarantee loans, and I mismanaged my funds. One of my loans didn't come through and I was stranded mid-way, having spent nearly 40,000 dollars at the end of the first year and with no money for the second year. I had to negotiate with school to allow me to continue, which they did but there were times when I had to choose between being able to pay my bills or buying groceries.
(And now that I started earning again, that strain is eased but the school has held my diploma till I pay of my dues - and that means no India trip for me for a long time).
I was the only one in my class who had never worked outside of India (and never earned foreign moolah) - so there weren't too many people who could relate to the situation. But even though I might be a one-off case, MBA is pretty expensive whatever way you look at it (an MBA costs you one half of what it costs you to buy an average home in America), and even if you get a loan, it's important to keep in mind that we, termed aliens for tax purposes won't get credits for the tuitions or the interests that we pay (unlike the citizens).
Getting an MBA could be a positive NPV venture but the initial cash outflows could create a BIG void. The second disadvantage that we aliens have is the (non) availability of work visas (there is no guarantee you would get one even though you might have a good job and you are ineligible for a lot of positions because of your visa status).
Apart from the high expense, the experience has been awesome. There were people from more than 30 different countries, and the age difference varied. In a class of nearly 165, there were 7 who had near zero work experience. They were either undergrads at the same institute and had developed good rapport with the admission staff/faculty, or had dabbed in entrepreneurship (e.g. one had started a gaming company, the other used to sell designer clothes), or were pursuing joint degrees (one was a medical student and another a law student).
I wouldn't know how would they have fared had they pursued job opportunities. Only one of them actively looked for jobs (and even though he had multiple job offers, most offers were a rung or two lower than what they would have been had he had some experience under his belt). Almost all the interviews I had were based on my work experience pre-MBA and so I believe it matters a lot. But younger people do tend to get higher salaries (younger = less than average age) though I don't have stats to prove that. And Indians tend to be among the younger lot.
The older guys didn't really care much about salaries (quite a few of them knew they would have to settle down with lower than their pre-MBA salaries because they were switching careers).
In short, MBA in the US is akin to a two year reality show. The stakes are high - and if you don't have sufficient assets to back your loans, one mistake could put you in debt for life. Work experience helps (the kinds where you have managed people or dealt with bureaucracy or been caught up fixing processes). And if you come straight from India, there is a lot of potential to learn and have fun at the same time.
"Whatever the reasons, the bottomline is, if you have a high GMAT score, great academics and something in your CV which stands out in terms of leadership skills or entrepreneurial experience, you should take a shot at top US bschools. Even as you take the CAT, XAT and all that."..Completely agree. Just one thing to add. Make an informed decision whatever school you choose to go to.
If you'd like to share your experience or advice on doing an MBA abroad, write to me at rashmi_b at yagoo.com.
I graduated from a top-20 school (which isn't an Ivy League by the way, but then when we were talking Stanfords and GSBs, I guess a non-ivy isn't necessarily a deal breaker). My decision to pursue an MBA wasn't economically motivated - I was doing pretty well back home, and just wanted to try something else, and I didn't know what that something else was supposed to me.
Coming to America wasn't as regrettable as going in for an MBA was. The two years were real tough. The school didn't guarantee loans, and I mismanaged my funds. One of my loans didn't come through and I was stranded mid-way, having spent nearly 40,000 dollars at the end of the first year and with no money for the second year. I had to negotiate with school to allow me to continue, which they did but there were times when I had to choose between being able to pay my bills or buying groceries.
(And now that I started earning again, that strain is eased but the school has held my diploma till I pay of my dues - and that means no India trip for me for a long time).
I was the only one in my class who had never worked outside of India (and never earned foreign moolah) - so there weren't too many people who could relate to the situation. But even though I might be a one-off case, MBA is pretty expensive whatever way you look at it (an MBA costs you one half of what it costs you to buy an average home in America), and even if you get a loan, it's important to keep in mind that we, termed aliens for tax purposes won't get credits for the tuitions or the interests that we pay (unlike the citizens).
Getting an MBA could be a positive NPV venture but the initial cash outflows could create a BIG void. The second disadvantage that we aliens have is the (non) availability of work visas (there is no guarantee you would get one even though you might have a good job and you are ineligible for a lot of positions because of your visa status).
Apart from the high expense, the experience has been awesome. There were people from more than 30 different countries, and the age difference varied. In a class of nearly 165, there were 7 who had near zero work experience. They were either undergrads at the same institute and had developed good rapport with the admission staff/faculty, or had dabbed in entrepreneurship (e.g. one had started a gaming company, the other used to sell designer clothes), or were pursuing joint degrees (one was a medical student and another a law student).
I wouldn't know how would they have fared had they pursued job opportunities. Only one of them actively looked for jobs (and even though he had multiple job offers, most offers were a rung or two lower than what they would have been had he had some experience under his belt). Almost all the interviews I had were based on my work experience pre-MBA and so I believe it matters a lot. But younger people do tend to get higher salaries (younger = less than average age) though I don't have stats to prove that. And Indians tend to be among the younger lot.
The older guys didn't really care much about salaries (quite a few of them knew they would have to settle down with lower than their pre-MBA salaries because they were switching careers).
In short, MBA in the US is akin to a two year reality show. The stakes are high - and if you don't have sufficient assets to back your loans, one mistake could put you in debt for life. Work experience helps (the kinds where you have managed people or dealt with bureaucracy or been caught up fixing processes). And if you come straight from India, there is a lot of potential to learn and have fun at the same time.
"Whatever the reasons, the bottomline is, if you have a high GMAT score, great academics and something in your CV which stands out in terms of leadership skills or entrepreneurial experience, you should take a shot at top US bschools. Even as you take the CAT, XAT and all that."..Completely agree. Just one thing to add. Make an informed decision whatever school you choose to go to.
If you'd like to share your experience or advice on doing an MBA abroad, write to me at rashmi_b at yagoo.com.
Monday, April 07, 2008
CAT goes online
Ending months of speculation the IIMs recently annnounced that the CAT exam is going online from November 2009.
Now this raises several issues. As the TOI notes:
If the exam goes online, not all students will be able to take the exam on the same day as is the case now. The exam will have to be conducted in staggered batches within a window period of a few months. The other change will be that instead of the current single exam paper, the online test will have several different papers of the same level of difficulty.
The report also notes that the exam will be 'similar' to GMAT and GRE except that the results will not appear instantly.
However, I am not sure if that is factually correct. The GMAT and GRE follows a Computer Adaptive model. As the Princeton Review explains:
The computer adapts the test to how you answer the questions. You’ll start off the test with a question of medium difficulty - if you answer it correctly, question number two will get a bit more challenging. Get that one right, and question number three gets harder still. The opposite is true as well. This system continues until you get to the end of the section and your ability level on that subject is determined.
Will the CAT also go the computer adaptive way or will it be a random set generated each time from a master bank of questions? We don't know yet.
Change is always difficult to accept and there may be some hiccups. But I am sure a way will be found to ensure the test is 'fair', computer adaptive or otherwise
Currently there are two admission tests in India which are solely online:
a) BITSAT - for BITS Pilani, Goa (and now Hyderabad)
b) NMAT - for NMIMS
Any of you who've experienced these tests, pls do drop me a line at rashmi_b at yahoo.com with your contact number. Folks who've taken GRE/ GMAT - I'd like to hear from you as well.
And of course, all are welcome to join in the discussion in the comments!
Now this raises several issues. As the TOI notes:
If the exam goes online, not all students will be able to take the exam on the same day as is the case now. The exam will have to be conducted in staggered batches within a window period of a few months. The other change will be that instead of the current single exam paper, the online test will have several different papers of the same level of difficulty.
The report also notes that the exam will be 'similar' to GMAT and GRE except that the results will not appear instantly.
However, I am not sure if that is factually correct. The GMAT and GRE follows a Computer Adaptive model. As the Princeton Review explains:
The computer adapts the test to how you answer the questions. You’ll start off the test with a question of medium difficulty - if you answer it correctly, question number two will get a bit more challenging. Get that one right, and question number three gets harder still. The opposite is true as well. This system continues until you get to the end of the section and your ability level on that subject is determined.
Will the CAT also go the computer adaptive way or will it be a random set generated each time from a master bank of questions? We don't know yet.
Change is always difficult to accept and there may be some hiccups. But I am sure a way will be found to ensure the test is 'fair', computer adaptive or otherwise
Currently there are two admission tests in India which are solely online:
a) BITSAT - for BITS Pilani, Goa (and now Hyderabad)
b) NMAT - for NMIMS
Any of you who've experienced these tests, pls do drop me a line at rashmi_b at yahoo.com with your contact number. Folks who've taken GRE/ GMAT - I'd like to hear from you as well.
And of course, all are welcome to join in the discussion in the comments!
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