Every once in a while you read a piece of news that makes you blink and go,"This can't be true!" Well today was one such day for me. As I scanned through the TOI after lunch (yes I know it's a morning paper but I get 4 of them, so...) there was this report on page 1 which briefly caught my attention:
'Kill Bush' call lands Indian in US jail
WASHINGTON: An Indian graduate student in the US who posted inflammatory messages on an internet bulletin board has been arrested and charged with threatening to kill President Bush, First Lady Laura Bush, Vice-president Dick Cheney and top Republican leaders.
Hoga koi bewakoof, I thought and that would have been that except the next line read...
Vikram Buddhi, a Purdue University graduate student, allegedly posted the detailed and threatening messages on a Yahoo finance board.
This couldn't be. Vikram Kapoor or Vikram Shah or Vikram Agarwal there can be hundreds. But Vikram Buddhi I know only one. He studied in school with me.
The maths whiz
Vikram Buddhi was a short, dark, quiet boy. I must have exchanged less than 5 words in the 6 years we spent in St Joseph's High School, Colaba. But we had a connection. I was the 'girl who always came first'. He was the 'boy who came second'.
But we didn't really compete. There was never any danger of Vikram taking over my place because while he was brilliant at Maths and Science his Hindi absolutely sucked. And he didn't care to improve it so he could improve his rank. It simply did not matter to him.
Anyhow, we passed out of school and lost touch with Vikram but a couple of years later, there was a shocking bit of news. Vikram's father, Capt B K Subbarao, was arrested at Mumbai airport for allegedly smuggling out sensitive defence documents.
It was really a tale of jealousy and intrigue - Capt Subbarao was falsely implicated but it took many many years for him to prove his innocence. The sad story is extremely well documented here.
Subbarao was charged with trying to smuggle secret documents out of the country under the Official Secrets Act and the Atomic Energy Act. A vicious propaganda campaign was launched against him through the national and vernacular press to build a case, suggesting that he was caught at the airport carrying atomic and defence secrets of the country on board a foreign flight.
But all that Subbarao was carrying with him was his Ph.D thesis approved by IIT Bombay, and other literature on nuclear technology which is freely available and can be readily accessed from various universities and research centres in the world. In fact, Subbarao had not violated any law.
The scientists of BARC and DAE, who had failed to match Subbarao's ingenuity in nuclear science and technology, were immensely successful in causing harm to his body, mind and reputation. They used the legal system and state authority to fulfil their ends. Neither the Constitution of India nor the Courts were of any help to him....
The court case dragged on for five years. It was placed before three Magistrates, five Sessions judges, 21 High Court judges and 13 Supreme Court judges. In the meantime, Subbarao had spent time in the jail studying law and appeared-in-person in the Sessions Court, Bombay High Court and the Supreme Court where the case reached for a second time. Finally, in October 1991, the Bombay High Court passed Subbarao's acquittal orders. The appeal against the acquittal was dismissed by the Supreme Court in 1993.
What happened to Vikram, we wondered? We learnt he too ran from pillar to post during this period. "So sad," people whispered."Such a bright boy, he was".
Frankly, it's hard to comprehend the kind of stress he must've been through at this point. But eventually, he returned to his studies and went off to the US. I bumped into his mother once, a few years ago, and asked about him. She said he was "OK"...
And so, it's really sad and surreal to read this new piece of news. I searched for 'proof' that this is the same guy. No pictures turned up on the net. But this was enough:
Vikram wrote his M.Sc. dissertation on Affine and Projective Varieties, which was completed in 1994. Currently he is doing Ph.D. in Algebraic Geometry at Purdue University, USA.
I just know it's him. There can't be two Maths geniuses with this name. And although I am sure even today he must appear to be a kind and gentle soul in the way most 'lost in their own world' mathematical types are, there must have been rage inside him. Simmering there, waiting to explode.
Sadly, misdirected at George Bush. And in a country paranoid enough to mistake just about anyone for a terrorist today.
I'm not justifying his rantings - it is kind of thing you do not do in a post 9/ 11 America. That you should not do if you have chosen to make your home in that country. But now that the deed is done, I hope he is able to come out of it with dignity.
May God give his family strength, after all they've been through. And the lesson is: think about what you want to say, before you say it. Even on the internet.
Especially on the internet!
Online, on record
What you post can and will be used against you - if not by Uncle Sam or Aunty Sonia -by your current or prospective employer. New York Daily News reports
An increasing number of employers are investigating potential hires online to find out more about an applicant than what's on their résumé...
Sure, you may not have intentionally posted something controversial about yourself online, but from blogs to dating profiles, the Web has become a place where people air dirty laundry without a thought, making it a dangerous place to mix business with pleasure.
Just ask 27-year-old Colleen Kluttz. Type the freelance television producer's name into Google and the second item that comes up is her popular My Space profile. This online social network has become an outpost for photographic and written self-expression, but it's not always an asset in landing a job. "A friend of mine posted a picture of me on My Space with my eyes half closed and a caption that suggests I've smoked something illegal," says Kluttz.
While the caption was a joke, Kluttz now wonders whether the past two employers she interviewed with thought it was so funny. Both expressed interest in hiring Kluttz, but at the 11th hour went with someone else
And yeah, blogging can be equally 'dangerous'. The same article recounts the tale of Ciara Healy, who applied for a job at a university.
When a member of the search committee Googled her, he found she had called him a "belligerent jerk," though not by name, and canceled the interview.
Wonderful.
Coincidentally, just today I received a phone call from a guy who is an HR manager with a company in Bangalore who wants me to delete certain comments he made on my blog. Because he got carried away and used unparliamentary language and now when he googles his name, this comment appears on the very first page thrown up.
A wicked part of me says, let him suffer but sigh! the noble part wrests back control and I do try to do the needful. But the trashcan icon just does not appear next to his comment and I am clueless how else one can delete in blogger...
Life is strange, the virtual world stranger!
You may delete the comment, but what about the Big Brother who remembers everything and serves it as "cached copy"?
ReplyDeleteWow Shashikant!
ReplyDeleteAll you wanted to comment after reading the whole blog was that the HR Manager's problem wont be solved just by deleting the comment..
Sad to read about the guy !
ReplyDeleteReally freaky! :-S
ReplyDeleteWell, blogging has its +ves as well as -ves..
ReplyDeleteWhile it provides a platform for rants/raves/talk about anything, it also exposes an individual (and his thoughts/ideas) to the world.
What'er it is - one thing Bloggers should not forget is ::
Big Brother is always watching Bloggers!!
And if one does a *thought-crime*, Big Brother will punish!!
Ashish
http://KreativeKommons.blogspot.com
Oh, he is that Subbarao's son kya? I always thought that there was something fishy about that entire episode but can hardly believe that there was *no one* in the entire BARC and DAE who could match Subbarao's ingenuity as written at that website.
ReplyDeleteAfter I read your blog, I was reminded yet again that the world is a small place after all.
The scientists of BARC and DAE, who had failed to match Subbarao's ingenuity in nuclear science and technology, were immensely successful in causing harm to his body, mind and reputation.
ReplyDelete==========
Well, Rashmi, I know that you have quoted this and these are not your words, but the source seems to be biased.
Now, scientists at BARC and DAE dont have anything better to do, is it. And by the way, I have never heard of Subbarao's name as some great scientist of India whose "ingenuity in nuclear science and technology" could not be matched.
Agreed, the chap might have been falsely implicated, but by whom is something I doubt.
But sad to hear about Subbarao. Maybe it was just the technicians at DAE and BARC who implicated Subbarao. The website makes it seem that its scientists who were responsible. Now, media is really very mediocre in India these days, isnt it.
aaarghhhh!!
ReplyDeletebloggging & all the krap involved!!
wouldnt' disclaimers help!!?? ;))
just checked up googling my name
throws up my college student info..
but i dont think employers in india are into checking blog background and all that!! and duz it really matter to them!!??
Well it is definitely wrong to instigate ppl to violence even on websites. Freedom of speech is Ok but there should be limits.
ReplyDeleteWhat about India where even state cabinet Minsters call for murder of a cartoonist and religious leaders issue fatwas in the open.
purdue has lot of good science stuff to its credit. U rightly said "hoga koi bewakoof"
ReplyDeletefreaky and makes u want to censor your own thoughts .. never know just in case..!!
ReplyDeletesad considering we want others to emulate us in following democracy.. but are we really free??
Well dubya is scarred to death..he just can not stomach the realities in Iraq,Iran even States...catching innocent students is d only time-pass he can engage in nowadayz.
ReplyDeleteVikram Buddhi? Or Viparit Buddhi? Anyway it isn't about him. This happens in India too, some idiot sent a letter to Narendra Modi and got arrested and security agencies are right in taking this seriously. But what's stopping them from abusing this power?
ReplyDeleteAlthough most conspiracies are hatched in utmost privacy and the web can not be as easily used as a source for instigation (because of the number of opinions it would elicit from readers), some people will be used for "setting an example" and settling scores.
Are scare tactics such as these permissible in a democracy? Freedom of speech should not be abused but the power to rule is abused much more openly.
Hope we are not moving to an age where Anything we THINK can and will be held against us.
Well...Woke up on the 19th to that article..
ReplyDeleteSO was searching on the net to know more about it.. bumped into your post..
I personally have a different view point on it..
wrote a bit on the topic
http://randomthoughtsofinversion.blogspot.com
I feel America Always prided itself by being considered the most free nation of all time..
and after all the recent hoopla with regards to freedom of speech over the Danish Cartoons...
I feel all this incident goes on to re establish the facts about western double standards..
its like for bush killing embryoes for stem cell research is unethical..
but killing people alive and kicking.. in wars declared over fictitious matter is perfectly ethical..
aditya
Hi Rashmi,
ReplyDeleteThose comments from some unknown person on Bharat-Rakshak are based on propaganda from so-called anti-nuclear groups like Manushi (Sudhindra and Sanghamitta Gadekar). Generally speaking Capt. Subbarao has become a cause celebre among people who don't like the Department of Atomic Energy in India. The fact that these lies are repeated by people even on Bharat-Rakshak is proof of the effectiveness of this propaganda. Since his release Dr. Subbarao has gone on to make a series of unproven allegations against DAE accusing it of participating black market deals of nuclear technology. All of these allegations have been faithfully reproduced by the Manushi crowd all of whom seem get visas to the US at the drop of a hat, and get all manner of funding from the same "foundations" that fund the bulk fo the non-proliferation initiatives at places like NTI and NEPC.
What happened in the Subbarao case is simple. As India came to have nuclear capability, Madam Gandhi decided that India would subscribe to No First Use, and that the nuclear submarine would be the vehicle for India's guarenteed second strike strategy. Building a nuclear submarine was am extremely difficult undertaking that had taken many industrialized nations decades. Mind you these were nations that had almost a century of experience building submarines from scratch.
DAE was asked to put forth exploratory proposals for a nuclear reactor. Subbarao given his background was part of a team of people that was asked to interface between the Navy and the DAE. Had things gone well, Subbarao would have become a national hero, an Indian Hyman Rickover.
As the proposals were merely exploratory and the designers of the reactor were preoccupied with producing a sustainable and robust power source, a toy reactor to test on land and they were less than mindful of the Navy's preoccupations. The thinking at BARC was that once the core was designed the Navy could work to engineer around the size and management issue. There were *no* documents available (as they are today on the internet) on what constitutes a working nuclear reactor. The Indian Navy had no experience of working with a submarine nuclear reactor and only had very limited experience working with submarines in general.
In this atmosphere of confusion and fog of uncertainity, Capt. Subbarao proved to be the achilles heel in the project. No one knew where he got the sense of conviction that he espoused on matters of nuclear submarine affairs. After rejecting four designs, Capt. Subbarao began to question DAE's commitment to nuclear submarine project. He went directly to the Chief Naval Staff and thence to Madam Gandhi herself.
After a marathon two hour long meeting with Madame Prime Minister, he was reassured that his concerns would be addressed but he continued to agitate and finally Madame Gandhi unable to make further technical sense of the affair chose to make him incharge of the reactor design, a position that technically already enjoyed. He interpreted the PM's views to mean that he had complete control over the design of the reactor - this was communication gap.
The project floundered and what exactly happened afterwards is known only to a very few people. Capt. Subbarao's strange and distruptive behavior on a project of such sensitivity had aroused suspicisions in the intelligence community. Although this was not the first time that this had happened and other staff in high offices had been investigated before, however this was the first time that an entire project hung in the balance.
What happened next is not known to anyone except the intelligence people. I suspect that the counter-intelligence people were not able to give Capt. Subbarao a clean chit or perhaps the strategist in the National Security Council could not determine what exactly Capt. Subbarao was up to. I suspect that Capt. Subbarao got wind of this. There has to date been no convincing explanation for what Capt. Subbarao was doing leaving for the US. You understand the head of a major national defence project doesn't just get up and leave for the US. I also strongly suspect that Capt. Subbarao's thesis was not a public document as is suggested by the anti-nuclear crowd. The intelligence people suspected that he was supplying details of the reactor to the Americans.
What happened afterwards was standard as spy stories go. Every overnment does what it can to minimize the damage. In India the standard procedure is to limit judicial scrutiny to a select panel, also very little press coverage is devoted to the affair and it is as if nothing happened. This should explain the party held for him. The suspect if he is not killed, is usually held in custody without a public trial. The higher his official position, the more complete the denial of his rights. This is the same everywhere.
In the Subbarao case, the added problem was that any attempt to try him would result in further exposure of the submarine project so he was almost completely shielded from the Judicial intervention. That is what led to the complicated treatment that Capt. Subbarao recieved at the hands of the otherwise impeccable Indian Supreme Court.
Over time the Submarine project went from strength to strength and by the early 90s most of what Capt. Subbarao might have known became archival. So the efforts to hold him in custody were relaxed and by 1993 after due process was effected, Capt. Subbarao was released.
In this ordeal his family has suffered immensely and for the courts of India. Like the Majors in the Samba Spy scandal, Capt. Subbarao became a signpost to the world that something was wrong with India's judiciary. By the early 90s the Indian judiciary was already under attack for having effectively sanctioned police excesses under the infamous TADA. And thus Capt. Subbarao became a prisoner of conscience for the India's courts. These factors contributed to his release and appointment as a supreme court lawyer.
I have heard the Subbarao story from several angles and from all manner of persons. The enduring impression that I have is of an intelligent but slightly vain man, perhaps one who was socially challenged and could not find his place amongst his peers. I have never found a satisfactory answer to the questions that haunted many who were involved in this case - namely where did Capt. Subbarao's sense of conviction come from on these issues? how did he become so deeply convinced that he knew what he was talking about when neither did he nor the Indian Navy had access to any information about these complex systems and their performance.
I can't imagine that Capt. Subbarao would be very happy with the DAE. Given the ease with which he sits among the anti-nuclear community, I think the Americans actually like him. I also don't imagine there is any way he is very happy with the fact that the Americans and the DAE are now finally on the same page - thanks to the Bush government's Indo-US nuclear deal. I would not be surprised if Capt. Subbarao conveyed his distaste to Vikram.
Now Vikram, that is another story. Your kind and gentle friend when in IITB actually threatened to stab a fellow hostellite. IIRC he held the screw driver to the boy's neck. He suspected that the boy was involved in some sort of prank.
I think at the time the case made before the hostel 8 warden was that the Vikram Buddhi was deeply troubled by the suffering he endured as a result of his father's incarceration and his social anxiety was a result of that.
That still leaves the question - did he intend to use the screwdriver to stab the boy he caught? Does the Secret Service's dilemma seem clearer to you now?
Today Capt. Subbarao claims his son was framed when his son's lawyer claims he was exercising free speech.
The dichotomy is interesting but it appears the apple does not fall far from the tree.
What a tragic story of Dr. Subbarao! I think the travesty of justice in India is laid out so threadbare.
ReplyDeleteNo wonder that stressful environment changed the genius of young Vikram into a career failure (8 years in a phd program, then switched major in his 30's!) and the crazy threats (incidentally, the alleged details are sickening -- inciting rape, mutiliation, bombing, racial hatred, etc. etc.). No one can tell whether a tortured childhood like that grows into someone just talking crazy or inciting others to act out or himslef acts out.
Kudos to the author for a thoughtful narration of Vikram's background and others for shedding more details on the Subbarao issue.
Unfortunately, the majority of commenters are about settling scores against America and Bush than either reading through the whole story of how Subbarao was chewed and thrown away by their own system (still there, screwing many lives, it could come get you too!) or how methodic the plausible cause case has been made out in the referenced PDF by the secret service to bring Vikram to trial.
Perhaps it is time to compare and contrast the two justice systems. Was Subbarao ever afforded even this detailed chargesheet? How quickly Vikram got his chargesheet instead of months and years of police torture preceding it? And Vikram will get his full jury trial -- for those who don't know, a jury is a set of ordinary people who observe the trial and decide whether guilty or not.
Is that too much to ask of the majority of the sound byte generation?
On the face of it, Vikram did not just make a one-off comment "kill bush or something" (itself a crime in most countries, including India) but he went about repeatedly, writing what al qaeda websites do in spewing racial, national hatred and inciting several specific criminal acts.
Incidentally, he was booked under a standard pre-9/11 criminal offence. This would have come to trial in a pre-9/11 world too. (if you feel insanity on the strenght of his tortured childhood can be his best defence, organize a group of old classmate friends and get in touch with Vikram's US attorney to present that).
Totally agree with Sanjay D.
ReplyDelete@Comic Project Democracy entails rights as well as duties. And no democracy ever can give right to a person to incite violence by calling for murder, rape etc.
Thuough I don't agree with a person being denied job because he has posted something in a blog.
I feel this sort of thing where recruiters look for what a person has posted in his blog will kind of bring some order into the blogosphere. People whether it is through blogs or other media need to be careful of what they say and should take care that what they say does not hurt anyone's sentiments.
ReplyDelete@vaibhav: Did I imply that democracy meant only rights? "Are scare tactics such as these permissible in a democracy? Freedom of speech should not be abused but the power to rule is abused much more openly."
ReplyDeleteRights and Responsibilities are both important, but we are in a society where rights and responsibilities applies only to man on the street..(ok in the AC cabin)...and not to those who rule :-) I was quite clear about the threat part - just not done - but there is a larger issue where some people will be used as poster boys for showing off the power of power..that i am very scared of. It has started with jobs and will spread to other areas. I am surprised why do-no-evil-google doesn't have an option "don't index me" or "protect my privacy" and why it is left to the individual to hide himself :-)))
if what bloggerhere has posted is true, I am feeling guilty of posting my comment (blushes),
ReplyDeletebut if what maverick has posted is true, then not really.
Anyway, there are many intelligence matters that we would never know. We really dont know the truth. And the intelligence sleuths would not even bother to refute or confirm Subbaraos allegations or the posts like bloggerhere and maverick have posted.
Hello,
ReplyDeleteThere is are two typos in my previous post,
1) the line " so-called anti-nuclear groups like Manushi (Sudhindra and Sanghamitta Gadekar). " should read so-called anti-nuclear groups like Manushi and folks like Sudhindra and Sanghamitta Gadekar."
Manushi is a newspaper published with a strong contributions from the Non-Communist Left (NCL) groups in India. These are leftist sounding groups that are traditionally pro-US. Some say these groups were created as part of a US govt. initiative to counter Russia's attempts to monopolize labour unions.
Sudhindra and Sanghamitta Gadekar publish the journal Anumukti, which claims to attack the DAE's handling of health issues among tribals near its Uranium mines.
2) the line "non-proliferation initiatives at places like NTI and NEPC. "
should read "non-proliferation initiatives at places like NTI and NPEC."
NTI stands for nuclear-threat initiative and NPEC stand for Non-Proliferation Education Center.
in the shadows,
ReplyDeletespy cases are especially hard to prove in a court of law. Most evidence is obtained with a sense of urgency. The idea is to find out as much as you can without giving anything away, so the judiciary is kept out of the loop. Mistakes can happen, but then there are also cases where the conclusion is correct only the evidence won't hold up in court.
The hardest part is proving cases where high level personalities are involved.
I once again note the dichotomy between Capt. Subbarao's statement and his son's confession to the Secret Service. The father appears to be denying that his sone did anything at all - much less something wrong. Vikram appears to be saying that he did something - but nothing wrong. The dichotomy suggests that Capt. Subbarao is saying he can't believe his son would ever do such a thing. It appears to me that Capt. Subbarao is putting some distance between himself and his son. That is an extremely odd thing for him to be doing.
During the detention of Capt. Subbarao, an attempt was made to make it look like it was DAE, specifically Dr. Raja Ramanna who was responsible for Capt. Subbarao's arrest. This is a plain white lie. The DAE may not have thought highly of Capt. Subbarao's antics, i.e. his continued interference in the DAE's area of responsiblity, but they did not have anything to do with Capt. Subbarao's arrest.
An officer of Capt. Subbarao's rank and standing cannot be arrested by the Mumbai Police's Sahar Intelligence unit without the express sanction of the highest authority in the land. Capt. Subbarao said that he was going to the US to make a presentation for a CEAT-AT&T joint venture - something about software. Well why was he taking his Phd Thesis along. What does nuclear propulsion have to do with financial software? This is the part that has no convincing explanation.
Maverick -- to a neutral reader (am not an anti-nuke pacifist or any such extreme ideologue) your logical comments reconfirm most of the originally quoted story that DAE/BARC had vendetta against Subbarao, his strong technological conviction (what's wrong with that, by the way?) and for rejecting their proposals. So the retribution came from the highest levels.
ReplyDeleteIt is a blot however certain parts of the judiciary, as you and others alluded to, handled his case along the executive's directions. If he was such a threat, the govt would have suspended his passport in advance, would have required him to get permission before travel (which most govt servants have to). Obviously, it was not about rational protection of secrets with prudent steps. He didn't try to sneak out like the latest RAW spy did through Nepal apparently on a foreign passport. It was individuals in power abusing the system to target a maverick scientist/military whistleblower. They did not present a reasonable chargesheet during the years he was dragged through courts without a solid case. This trend of trying someone with unfounded allegations (without so much as a complete chargesheet and a fair, speedy trial) is what is rotten about the Indian justice system -- against a spy or a common person. It naturally gets abused by the few in power. Most of us here are on the wrong side of that divide. We should recognize it so.
If the freedom of speech argument can work for the defense anywhere it will in the US, a country with a strong, constitutionally protected, _almost_ unfettered right to free speech (even after recent dilution) unlike european or Indian constitutions. That is nonetheless relative, not absolute. Americans have more stomach for it in general than other countries. Nothing good or bad, just the way certain countries and societies evolve.
By the way, why sully your otherwise rational arguments and a strong case with the pot shots at the credibility and motives of "anti-nuclear" groups?
The "dichotomy" between Vikram's and his father's statements (I haven't seen either, except what is noted here) might be because a US lawyer would advise the freedom of speech argument which has a shot whereas under Indian laws, that Subbarao is apparently well versed in, it stands no chance. In general Indian prosecution isn't exactly known for solid, well researched evidence as Subbarao would have found it. In India, it is almost never about securing a conviction with a solid case. It is mostly the harassment of dragging the defendant through many "dates" and multiple levels of courts, arrests and bails. This is so much so, common people measure "justice done" based on how many bails were denied and how much appeals "hassles" the accused was put through.
ReplyDeleteIf one looks at Vikram's indictment pdf (aka chargesheet), it is surprisingly solid, even to an Internet techie like me, spelling out static IP addresses, MAC addresses, and even ARP tables to trace the comments to Vikram's computer and person!
leftist crap, that was.
ReplyDeleteWell this was one nice post and made for an interesting read though the story of your childhood friend ( or should I say classmate) was sad.
ReplyDeleteSo you always came first in your class... That, as far as I am concerned, isnt always a plus...:)..
As for google its strange how it throws up things that you dont want and when you get out there looking for something you might spend hours and not find what you are looking for. One word for it...weird...but true.
How have you already made up your mind that Vikram did indeed leave those comments on the website and that it wasn't a prank being played on him by someone else?
ReplyDeleteYou say you had known this person to be a mathematics wizard, and are all praise for his intelligence. Do you really think he would be so foolish enough to do something like this? How difficult is it to hack into someone's account and post stuff?
ReplyDeleteDoes that mean it's not leftist crap?
ReplyDeleteDr. Subbarao has made a surprisingly rational case, bereft of loaded bitterness one would expect from a wronged whistleblower "gone crazy". Promoting hydel power (NBA?) and still flaunting his nuclear science badge hardly qualifies as leftist even in the US, let alone in much-more-to-the-left India.
ReplyDeleteHe has made a pretty solid rational analysis of India's self interests -- you may differ with some or all of the conclusions -- if anything, a hallmark of rightist conservatism, along the way exposing the meagre role nuclear power plays now or in the next few decades for India's energy needs (even supported by numbers given by "mainstream" nuclear advocates in India!).
The criticism of his position is bereft of India's self interest analysis, what one would expect from an intelligent "rightist" worth his/her salt, making it "rightist crap" -- jingoism of the two digit IQ crowd.
However, I do criticize Dr. Subbarao -- this would hurt him a lot more than his positions on nuclear power -- for not working hard enough to keep his son from becoming a frustrated cynic!! I've read the criminal complaint and Vikram's lawyers implicit admission he wrote those things. His only prayer is a first amendment defence. Only ajudge can make that too close a call.
Hi Sanjay D,
ReplyDeleteStrong convictions based on what? and absence of facts?
At the time that Capt. Subbarao made these convictions known to his peers, the Indian Navy (IN) had been operating subs for about a decade. There were no submarine building facilities in India and outside DAE no one has the experience of actually working with a nuclear reactor. Dr. Subbarao's theoretical knowledge of reactor design did not make him an expert on building a real reactors. Dr. Subbarao seemed to think his PhD in the principles of reactor design was equal to atleast 10 DAE phDs, never mind the fact that the DAE guys got their PhD by actually building reactors in India.
The Navy had no idea what it took to build a nuclear reactor in India. They had no experience with material sciences and metallurgy that went into designing reactors. The Navy had no clue as to how to actually build a submarine, the only thing they had built in India that could function underwater was built with BARC's help.
The Navy supported Capt. Subbarao because most people in the Navy had no idea what a submarine was... much less what a nuclear submarine is actually used for. Most of the IN's people were seduced by the Soviet design they had been given marginal access to. That thing was fueled with enriched uranium. Where were we to get that from in the 80s? *ALL* our reactors are based on natural uranium. We did not have the ability to make enriched uranium. The case that several voices in the Navy have been consistently putting forth is the purchase of a sealed submarine reactor from Russians. But do these people understand what will happen if the nuclear deterrent is based on imported technology? This stands the logic of an indigenous deterrent on its head.
That is what the DAE was trying to protect. Dr. Subbarao was simply a symbol of the Navy's ignorance. Removing him from the picture would simply remove an icon of this problem *not* the problem itself. The DAE had little to gain from the expulsion of Dr. Subbarao, that is some figment of his imagination.
Anthonygonsalves,
I think you are misinformed about what can be downloaded from the internet. I have seen a dozen theses which have classified content. They are simply not deposited in a publicly accessible place. BARC itself has such an arrangement in place.
There was no internet in 1980s when Dr. Subbarao was arrested.
However Dr. Subbarao knew way too much about the project to leave the country. It appears they suspected that he was up to no good and arrested him to be sure. That is unfortunately the way it works, he should count himself lucky, a number of people suspected of similar offenses simply end up in a shallow ditch somewhere.
Dr. Subbarao was going to make a presentation to AT&T on behalf of CEAT. There was no conference he was going to. There was no need to take that thesis along.
Think about it, a high ranking naval officer involved in the nuclear submarine project retires and gets a visa to the US? Do you know how many retired LCA project officials were denied a visa in 2005? What are the chances of some of this kind being approved for a visa in 1980 something? when Indo US relations weren't at the best? and he plans to go do "discussions" at a "conference" about his thesis? I don't know about you, but that sounds really bad to me.
Read the article you have enclosed carefully. Dr. Subbarao still harbours a grudge against DAE for what happened to him. He is not in favor of the nuclear deal or in favor of President Bush's pro-big business policies. This article is yet another case of Dr. Subbarao using his credentials to talk about things he has no clue of.
With regards Vikram Buddhi - he is displaying a shocking lack of understanding here. He is not a citizen - he has no rights - post Patriot Act, he cannot demand first ammendment (or any other) rights. Any rights that are extended to him are a courtesy not a privilege. He may appeal that his actions are not sufficient to deny him his rights, but that is about all he can do. I do not see any jury coming down in his favor.
This gives the Americans incredible leverage with Capt. Subbarao though which I am sure has come to the attention of people in Delhi.
Maverick
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ReplyDeleteMaverick -- Subbarao or the people in DAE have a lot more credentials what they are talking about than you or me.
ReplyDeleteYou seem to have a special knowledge of BARC and even vouching for Ramanna... perhaps grinding their axe here.. what is more odd is you're busting the navy's chops to get at Subbarao like an insider in the internecine partisan politics.
Without any allegiatnace to either department, I'd say neither had much clue about reactors or submarines back in the 60s and 70s, when Indians more or less mooched most of their "indigenous technology" off CIRRUS and other places. Everyone knows how safe or sophisticated those reactors have been.
Vikram isn't charged under the patriot act. He is getting a trial just as a US citizen would get -- you'll be lucky to be shown a full chargesheet within a reasonable time if you ever were arrested on false charges in India (after your DAE/BARC patrons are retired :)) and certainly his father wasn't so lucky in the jungle raj you condone "he should consider himself lucky". Corrupt Indian politicians love having the "scientist" types of your mold to continue their jungle raj. Indian govt was free to cancel his passport legally or if his PhD thesis was classified why wasn't he convicted in the court and jailed? I'm against this charade of pre-trial harassment in case it wasn't spelt out clealry.
If Subbarao was/is a US mole or susceptible to US leverage on him, he wouldn't go out of his way to blast the nuclear accord so dear to the US govt, now would he? He also wouldn't steep his own son in anti-US vitriol either!
Happy trails!
Hello Sanjay D,
ReplyDeleteThis isn't about taking sides - this is about using common sense.
Even today the DAE knows more about building reactors in India than the Navy knows about building submarines in India. Even today the DAE's experience with operating reactors far exceeds the Navy's experience with operating submarines.
Back when Capt. Subbarao went around badmouthing DAE in the PMO, the Navy had no idea how to design a submarine. Most of their tactical commanders had no idea how to utilize submarines in a war environment. They had a small cadre of submarine personnel that did the best they could under the circumstances, but that was all.
The Navy were keen to copy elements of a soviet design and that idea has kept popping up in all the writings about this issue - all this stuff about the "sealed submarine reactor from Russia", all this "exploiting a loophole in the NPT" talk their mouthpieces keep putting out. A nuclear deterrent cannot be based on imported components - certainly not at the propulsion level.
The DAE may not have been capable of building the reactor right away but atleast they understood the fundamentals of deterrence. The Navy appears to have missed that point. It was only when such misunderstandings were cleared up did the project proceed. The Navy's support for Dr. Subbarao was misplaced.
People in India who read Dr. Subbarao's story tend to identify with the mistreatment that he endured, perhaps even feel that they have experienced similar things from the Indian bureaucracy. The difference that most people miss is that Dr. Subbarao wasn't some ordinary person being jerked around in the local RTO, he was a high-ranking military officer suspected of espionage.
The suspicion of espionage is sufficient to end a career. I still think Dr. Subbarao was lucky. A number of police officers who went over in Punjab and Kashmir weren't so lucky.
To convict him would require exposure of the ATV project, something the government is not keen to do for reasons one can only speculate.
The PHWR is the *MOST* safe reactor design. The Indian PHWRs (INDU) are the safest PHWRs. The only people who disagree with this are the anti-nuclear guys who have happily reproduced all the lies that the so called Non-proliferation think tanks put up about DAE's safety record. Subbarao given his grudge with the DAE seems to gel well with that crowd.
In terms of "sophistication", the PHWR is about as "sophisticated" as any of the other things out there. Indian PHWRs are a tad bit more sophisticated than their Canadian counterparts because of certain India specific design issues. The thing that makes the PHWR attractive to most people is the relative simplicity of its operation and the ease of obtaining fuel.
Dr. Subbarao now has the unenviable position of watching the Americans (who he was suspected of working for) join hands with the DAE, an organization he doesn't really like at all. The reaction may simply be visceral.
Phony,
The thesis is not simply a peice of paper, it can easily contain several conclusions that may be left out deliberately or even deemphasized in the text.
Scientific classification systems are different from other systems used in government. The formal term "classified" is rarely used, it is more a question of how exactly the thesis is written and how many people are given access to it. The correct word may be "compartmented access".
The thesis committee and reader is selected in such a way that it comprises people with the right level of clearance. The thesis can be deposited as a line entry in the university library's catalog and then the document itself is actually stored in another location available to a reader only if he or she has the right clearance level. There are ways to do this and it is done.
phony -- you're right on about theses. applaud you for standing up for the grave injustice to subbarao. worth noting he was put in the jail "UNDER TRIAL", never convicted so all talk of legality to carry a thesis abroad is moot. The bottom line, judges freed him _because it WAS legal to carry it_. they hassled him because they had nothing on him. that is what ordinary indians ought to worry about most! they came for him, they could come for you with trumped up charges (it is never about whether you committed the alleged crime in India.. or getting a fair trial).
ReplyDeleteanthonygonsalves - i don't really know any more than you do (thanks for the undeserved "expert" compliment). you need not surmise "any foreigner would", you just look at the criminal complaint, pdf link in these comments, and follow a full fair trial whether the same laws that apply to US citizen were invoked or any special laws for foreigners. and reach your conclusion. it would be sad if the conclusion is indians get a _fair_ trial in the US than in their own country, NO? the jury is out.
maverick -- we approch common sense from diametrically opposite ends. belief in the divine right of the ruling vs the innocence of ordinary people until proven guilty under a fair trial.
YES, THANKS RASHMI!!!
PHWR: Cirrus came from Canada and its money, used USAID money to buy heavy water to enrich plutonium that was used in Pokhran. No indigenous technology here. In fact, cheating the donors (they didn't give the reactor or money to enrich) and not even owning up to it. Let's get over our school books doctrination.
ReplyDeleteSafety: shared core of cirrus and dhruva and 1991 ring a bell? I visited a friend in BARC in 1992 and got some details.
Sanjay D, you simply don't know what you are talking about. Please look up the terms PNE and what was allowed using Cirus and its components/constituents/fuel. You may be surprised to know who exactly was cheated.
ReplyDeleteAnd what's this about enriching plutonium? Please explain so that lesser mortals like me can also know how heavy water is used to enrich plutonium.
I agree with maverick - the good captain should consider himself lucky that he is not in prison any more or worse. Trying to take his PhD thesis outside the country, when said thesis contains sensitive matter, at best displays a shocking lack of judgement on his part. For people holding sensitive posts and being privy to sensitive information, the rules are very strict indeed and were far stricter in the 80s (how does notifying the authorities when you meet a foreigner sound to you especially when the foreigner is a blood relative?). People knowing the rules should play by it. The rules may sound draconian and unfair but they are there nevertheless.
Hi Phony,
ReplyDeleteEvery place has different procedures. I cannot comment on what is in place in India. Any government officer working on sensitive data knows that you have to be careful or risk raising suspicions.
Dr. Subbarao should have known what every officer in the government knows about handling sensitive data. At his level you can't say "oops.." the penalties are too high.
Everyone seems keen to think that the DAE had ego problems and was desperate to stop Dr. Subbarao's appointment. No one admits to the possibility that Dr. Subbarao has atleast as much of an ego problem as the DAE and it is plausible that the fact that he was denied a position as the head of the submarine project could have sent him flying into the arms of the Americans.
All this tripe from Bidwai is not worth commenting on. If I was getting grant after grant from the Ford Foundation or the H Smith Richardson Foundation or the Scaife Foundation and other assorted "non-profit foundations" I would have to write whatever bilge they asked me to.
The DAE's single minded pursuit of independence from Uranium imports has been a thorn in the US based mafias that control the international uranium trade. Most of these Non-Proliferation joints look out for the Uranium industry's interests. The profits of a controlled trade in Uranium are used to pay for a sizable number of psyops and agitprop operations - all conducted under the guise perfectly legitimate socially responsible actions of non-profit foundations.
The parallels between these guys and those Islamist preachers who perpetrate terror under the guise of religious activity are quite shocking.
Sanjay D,
Getting a design from a set of documents is not the same thing as building an actual reactor. These things aren't semi-knock down kits. It take much more than just a screw driver to put these things together.
The DAE has completely altered most aspects of the design and successfully continued to build reactors even in the face of an international sanctions regime. If the DAE was simply assembling imported reactors in kit form - the entire thing would have stopped when the Canadians cut supplies in 1974. We have built over a dozen reactors after the Canadians and the Americans cut aid to us.
Do you understand now where the indigenous content is?
The Navy is incapable of building anything right now. There is no manufacturing capability in the Navy - all that is in the dockyards.
The dockyards (eg MDL, GSRE, etc...) can barely build modern surface vessels, despite their recent successes (the P17 project, the Delhi class etc...) they are heavily dependent on technology imports for most of their tools and have little local R&D.
There are two places in India today where a submarine can be built. The first is a line supplied by HDW. This line is mothballed per an agreement with HDW. The second place is where the ATV is being built.
Look boss, if you don't know something just ask. This business of making informed sounding statements when actually requesting for knowledge very annoying.
Enriched plutonium? what the devil is that? Never heard of such a thing.
Sanjay D,
ReplyDeleteYour notion of "common sense" defies understanding.
A man in Capt. Subbarao's position is as much a part of the ruling class as anyone else in DAE is. Membership of this elite comes with privileges and responsibility. For Capt. Subbarao to now pretend he was simply a common person mistreated by the ruling elite is absurd.
Shared core of Dhruva and CIRUS? so what? yes the core design is the same. It is the PHWR design, which is openly published scientific material - not proprietary information - the US and Canada do not OWN the design - the Canadian have built a PHWR and we have built a PHWR. The core of CIRUS was replaced as part of a life extension program. If the fact that the PHWR design was first published by a Canadian is taken as a statement of intellectual property then all of modern photonics and non-linear optics is the intellectual property of C V Raman and should be strictly licensed by the Government of India.
Cheating the Donors? what nonsense. The donors gave us a natural uranium fueled reactor, they gave us a Pu refining line for the spent fuel. They had no clauses on how the spent fuel was to be treated and they did not have any limits on the manner in which the Natural uranium was to be bred in the PHWR.
If we chose to use the PHWR and Pu refining line to make a peaceful nuclear explosive - a non-weaponized configuration for peaceful land excavation purposes we didn't cheat anyone.
i wrote the post in a hurry, typing "enrich" instead of "produce". big deal! The note stands loud and clear: pokhran-I was entirely based on cheating the donors, who gave the reactor, the heavy water and the cheating to donors happened by reprocessing spent fuel. so much for indigenous flag waving under the cover of secrecy when questioned! i do know what i'm talking about the 1991 incident.
ReplyDeletemaverick -- it is now obvious you are running a hit job on subbarao on behalf of DAE. he wasn't _convicted_ under any rules or law. do you understand the difference between accusations/prima-facie complaint, a full chargesheet/indictment and fair trial leading to conviction or acquittal? I don't think inebriated with the power of your DAE benefactors, these ordinary issues ever encroached your conscience! for you, nuclear power primacy means any life, any due process of law is fair game. undertrial extended detention tantamounts to illegal incarceration.
if you want to continue blowing the trumpet for the DAE master that scientist whistleblowers should be thrown in a ditch for the crime of rejecting designs (obviously DAE did not know civilized means of arguing their case stronger and appealing his rejection), feel free. just because you say you know this, doesn't mean so. we've all heard "trust me, i know" argument a million times.
it is also sad any discussion of safety or loss of life is automatically labelled "leftist crap" for you. using labels or claiming secrecy or using lame notes "i know, you don't" are all clear signs of running out of arguments.
turns out non-leftist (doesn't include india) countries have the best safety records, nuclear included, where a single nuclear incident can freeze the entire nuclear industry for decades. happy trumpeting!!
"a non-weaponized configuration for peaceful land excavation purposes we didn't cheat anyone."
ReplyDeleteYou crack me up! Buddha smiled only because a small piece of land in arid Rajasthan happened to have been excavated. I've an on-going construction job in my backyard, perhaps I should ask the contractor to employ peaceful excavacation means you suggest instead of the noisy john deeres.
For those who don't speak affected bureaucratese:
1. Canada gave the CIRUS reactor -- India's first, well second if you count Apsara from the UK-- in the 1956 with assurances it will be _used for peaceful purposes_. (funny you quote the exact words "peaceful land excavation purposes"). US gave Heavy Water for it. India produced plutonium by reprocessing spent fuel, CIRUS being the only place to do so until the 1980s (when its core sharing twin Dhruva.. the epitome of indigenous design operationalized).
2. So, you are the final authority to vouch all of that "peacefully prouced plutonium" went only to make the buddha smile at pokhran-I in 1974. That is it!!? You must be more knowledgeable than so many people from jane's weekly to hardcore rightist scientists to the "leftist crap" people differing only the exact number of warheads that plutonium ended up into Indian's CMD (whatever the TLA for its deterrence) nuclear arsenal?
Hey, even the Pakistanis have more conscience in admitting they stole or misused others' technology.
The hypocritical claims of using CIRUS for peaceful purposes -- the fulcrum upon which the entire moral, technological and legal arguments of Indian nuclear establishment rest -- will come a full circle very shortly. India has bitterly negotiated its right to designate each reactor under the military or civilian list. And it has no option but to put CIRUS and Dhruva under the military list, contrasting its three decades old pack of lies. That day is very close!
ReplyDeleteMaverick -- the masters forgot to tell you it is time to turn off the parrotted line "peaceful excavation purposes" in light of the US-Indian agreement.
Now, don't get me wrong. I don't believe in nuclear apartheid -- US should have nukes and India shouldn't. I am sick of the extermely haughty Indian nuclear establishment running roughshod over (as the self-proclaimed elitist class) ordinary citizen's concern or churning out whole truth for citizen consumption from a pack of lies.
BAE's survival rests on magnifying many times the indigenous component. Too bad, Subba rao tried to call a spade a spade. I salute the man for standing up, regardless of his politics!
Phony,
ReplyDeleteClass is always an issue, you can view it from the lens of privilege but I prefer to say that every social segment comes with its constraints.
There is a disparity in the manner in which espionage is dealt with, and Dr. Subbarao despite his claims quite frankly had an easy ride compared to others who faced similar charges.
Sanjay D,
You are extremely keen to give DAE the benifit of malice. Your real or imagined grudge against the Government of India has jaundiced your mind.
What is this 1991 incident you keep talking about? lets hear it.
After 1974, the Canada and US abrograted the agreement on peaceful uses of nuclear technology. Once the agreement was broken by them - we had no restrictions on developing solutions that met our national security needs.
We have neither stolen nor misued anything. In designing the fission experiment at Pokharan we violated no clause of agreement under which the technology was shared with us. The West chose to interpret our experiment in Pokharan as a weapons test - which it was not. The device was intended for peaceful purposes only, it was not a weaponized configuration - there was no way to deliver the device to a target. The truth has an enduring quality - when they said it was "peaceful" they were telling the truth.
The Pakistanis are addicted stealing. There is no indigenous development there at all. Their own smuggling industry stifles the intiative to innovate. This is how we differ from them.
The US is keen to sell India nuclear materials and technology, some people say they want to sell us nuclear material from their old warheads. Some also say this will help the US deal in the short term with their storage problems at WIPP and Carlsbad. The US insists that we segregate our facilities in order to ensure that the sale of the material is not blocked in the US Congress. The term "military" is only now being used because now there is a national consensus towards sustained production of weapons grade plutonium. Until recently the recovery of weapons grade Plutonium from CIRUS and Dhruva was actually very low. These reactors were mostly used to produce medical isotopes for a BARC subsidary called BRIT.
The DAE isn't elitist, it just doesn't fill the air with random chatter. There is a large amount of material available in their published reports and their journals. No country's nuclear establishment is particular chatty. Given the way people like you react to the release of the truth - for example your bizarre refusal to accept the truth that the 1974 test was a peaceful experiment with no intended weapons use - who can blame the DAE for being the quiet sort.
If you choose to believe the lies and hype peddled by the Non-Proliferation community and you choose to use the "facts" they provide to attack the DAE, then there is little I can do to stop you. Some people might think you are intelligent because you sound like you know so much, but one might very well think otherwise.
"The West chose to interpret our experiment in Pokharan as a weapons test - which it was not. The device was intended for peaceful purposes only," -- Maverick the Omniscient, April 2006
ReplyDelete“The Pokhran test was a bomb, I can tell you now. An explosion is an explosion, a gun is a gun, whether you shoot at someone or shoot at the ground. I just want to make clear that the test was not all that peaceful.” Raja Ramanna in 1997 on Pokhran I to PTI. http://www.telegraphindia.com/1040925/asp/nation/story_3801878.asp
The age-old parrotted lies about "peaceful" purposes that only schoolboys or a population of a semi-closed economy listening only to Doordarshan would swallow are no longer tenable. Update your story, even Ramanna did so he won't be called a hypocrite after his death when the entire truth comes out.
This is similar to the fallacy of socialist economy in India's first four decades that became untenable with the BoP crisis in 1991 forcing opening up.
Societies evolve and learn from their past grave mistakes. If you want to cling to the flag hypocritically and call every one that sheds some sunlight with a grudge, enjoy the wallowing in the denial!
The day India claims CIRUS under military list is your day or reckoning to come out of the denial that CIRUS was used peacefully. Donors don't break any agreement after giving the reactor and the heavy water. The chutzpah of a beggar!!
Sanjay D,
ReplyDeleteDr. Ramanna is correct in stating that it was a bomb, in that it did generate a large amount of energy in a very short amount of time. The exact statement was made by our Prime Minister Indira Gandhi to the country on the floor of the parliament.
It is very different to build a nuclear fission experiment, i.e. something that uses nuclear materials to create explosive force and to build a weapon, something that can actually be delivered to a target. This requires a very different approach one that was not followed in India.
If you choose to read the word "bomb" as implying that the device was a weapon, then yes you might interpret it as a very "unpeaceful" thing to do, but that is a matter of interpretation.
The text of the agreement was that we were not supposed to build a weapon. There was nothing that said we could not carry out research on nuclear explosives. Simply because we carry out research in nuclear explosives doesn't imply that we intend to build a weapon. By that logic a dozen countries that have signed the NPT are developing weapons. We should raise hell immediately if Germany or Japan even develop the smallest piece of technology that could concievably aid the production of nuclear weapons. These are countries with a history of facism, surely that is bad enough? and the Japanese .. they surely have a country or two they would really like to nuke? so why not haul them over coals?
This talk of socialism and liberalization etc... is meaningless in the context of nuclearization. There is no connection between the economic model chosen to develop the nation and the manner in which nuclear research and development was pursued.
If India had chosen to pursue a weapons program at that time, we would have simply used all our reactors to produce large quantities of weapons grade plutonium. We would not have been having this discussion on whether we should produce large quantities of plutonium now - if we had already decided to make weapons years ago now would we?
The only denial here is the one you are persisting in - the denial that Government of India was telling the truth all along.
Look boss, if you prefer to believe what those Non-Proliferation experts tell you- then I think you should feel free, but I can't say that what you are believing is in any way accurate.
I don't know what you keep bringing up the fact that CIRUS is on the military list. Yes it has been put nominally on the military list. I think in your imagination you see CIRUS as some sort of secret weapons factory, that has for the past so many years been churning out weapons grade plutonium. It is a misconception fostered by the Non-Proliferation community and its propaganda.
To me (and those who don't believe that propaganda) CIRUS is just an experimental reactor assembly, used to test out key elements and materials for the INDU design. CIRUS has been under IAEA safeguards for its entire lifespan. The reason it is on the military list is because that is the only way for DAE to protect proprietary technology and intellectual property - i.e. the very same reason that the FBRs at Kalpakkam and the AWHR experiments (Kamini etal) are under the military list - it is the most efficient way to protect against commerical espionage.
To you CIRUS is some example of India's perfidy - living proof that India was "cheating the donors" all along, to me it is a tired old reactor that will soon be decomissioned because the cost in money and time of repairing it would pay for up to two brand new INDU reactors.
If the national consensus develops towards the development of a large arsenal of Pu based weapons, then it is possible the two new INDUs that replace CIRUS will be used to make weapons grade Pu. That is a big "IF", one does not know what the national consensus will dictate.
save yourself the waffling and fidgeting. "peaceful" does not equate a weapon. don't make a fool of yourself by further splitting hair between weapon and a bomb. enough!
ReplyDeleteto own up to past fidgeting, mistakes of closed economy and drop the hypocritical foreign policy rhetoric of the past. time to move on to the 21st century of young, informed indian citizen who are intelligent and globally aware to see through the sophistry. the days of passing off the same-old BS of mai-baap-sarkar-knows-best are gone.
wake up, maverick! even the old generation of ramanna dropped the hypocrisy. don't stay behind. read your own quote next to ramanna's... the nonsensical explanations and semantic contortions are beginning to sound like the enron CEO in the defendant's box.
Rashmi -- thank you for bringing to our attention the connection of Vikram and Subba rao.
ReplyDeletePhony -- thank you for standing up for individual rights and unsafety of nuclear devices.
We have brought the proponents of the outdated myth of "peaceful" nuclear program kicking and screaming to acknowledging Pokhran I was a bomb... of course they must save face it was "a bomb, not weapon" when every school child knows the effect of that underground bomb if it went off in New Delhi or Mumbai or Lahore overground. That arrogant nuclear establishment in the early decades deceived the foreign donors of research reactors and in the latter deceived indian people with the smokescreen of nuclear energy, and in the process burnt people like Subba rao as inconsequential worthless machhars.
It is time for me to leave this discussion. The future of India belongs to a straight faced generation that would rather assert:
1. "yes, we carried out nuclear weapons programs";
2. "yes, we had too much hypocrisy in talking about peaceful nuclear energy just like the oxymoron of non-aligned or socialist garibi-hatao", and
3. "yes, lack of oversight on the nuclear establishment by anyone except the PM, sometimes -- like Shastri's first year -- not even that, diverted resources from nuclear energy to address our growing energy needs".
Bests!
Sanjay D,
ReplyDeleteThere you go with the hypocrisy kick again.
Per your logic the Govt. of India
1) lied to the Americans and Canadians and "enriched plutonium",
2) lied to the world about the "peaceful" part,
3) lied to to the country about the success of its reactor program,
4) lied to the world about what it did at CIRUS,
5) lied about the ATV project,
6) lied to crush Capt. B. K. Subbarao and
7) lied about everything else under the sun.
In your world view, did the Govt. of India do anything besides lie?
Where does all this hostility towards the Government of India come from?
Why do you feel compelled to believe that everything the GoI tells you is a lie?
Kuch paisa baki hain aap ka?
Now your denial extends to rejecting the fact that a "bomb" is useless unless it can actually be delivered to a target.
Are you genuinely unaware of the difference or are you being summarily dismissive?
Feel free to leave the discussion, but in my experience people usually tend to leave a discussion when they know they have lost. I for one will sorely miss your Non-Proliferation community inspired (lack of) knowledge.
Young or Old - the argumentative Indian will always exist. If you wish to stamp your youth in any meaningful way on the country's future you will have to come up with facts to back up your arguments. You could try to run away from the argument like others (eg. misguided youth in J&K and Punjab took solace in the gun), but you will not get far.
It is sad when someone claims to be an argumentative Indian, and then falls short of expectations like this. When I got to the dargah I will ask for mannat, that you don't make the rest of us "argumentative Indians" a bad name.
Allah Hafiz